Layered Time Signature Set Editing

[WXLF]

With one of the goals of Bitwig being to improve on existing features that have been around for years (and of course add new ones), I've been trying to think of ways to improve on "time signature modulations."

Logic has a pretty nice attempt at this, with the ability to copy/paste signatures along the linear timeline. A list view of the signatures (you cannot copy/paste in list view). And probably the most important one, the ability to have "signature sets" which allows you to create multiple sets of signatures containing different changes.

Ableton seemed to get lazy with this one and you can only right-click on the timeline and create a new signature where you clicked. that's it, no sets AFAIK

So just like Bitwig can do layered editing... my idea is to have layered signature set editing!
For example, I can have one set of signatures modulating back and fourth from 5/8 to 3/8, then have another set of 4/8 superimposed over the other set. But instead of having to switch between different sets to view the different timelines, with layered signature set editing you would be able to view both timelines at once!

The reason why I thought of this is because while using Logic, I found myself positioning the playhead somewhere in one set, then switching over to the other set to see where that certain point aligned with in the other set. So it would be much easier to view both timelines at once and get a grasp of everything as a whole

I'm not sure if this idea will have a good reception because it seems that a lot of people just stick with 4/4. But personally messing around with patterns to find different polymetric/rhythmic stuff is one of my favorite parts

Anyways, our friends over in Berlin definitely seem smart, so i'm sure they'll have a cool idea for time signatures even if they don't use this one

Any other ideas regarding this?

EDIT: I guess the layered idea could be achieved just by allowing each track/group track to have it's own set of time signatures.

[WXLF]

I created a mock-up of what i envisioned in my head. In the image we have one clip in 3/4 and the second clip modulating back and fourth from 3/4 to 2/4 and then finally meeting up at the end of the 11th measure. Obviously polymeters are nothing new, but the ability to see multiple sets in a layered manner is something no DAW currently has. AFAIK.
It's messy but I think the image should convey what I was trying to say

[WXLF]

I was also thinking you could assign a particular track to a set. This way it will know what clips/tracks to pull up when you select a set.

[shadiradio]

+ 1

This is often neglected (especially in EDM-focused DAWs), and I like your ideas here. As you mentioned it's usually just implemented in a bare-bones standard way without really pushing time-signature workflow forward.

EDIT: This would make editing and experimenting with polyrhythms more fun.

[WXLF]

i saw this post by deadmau5 today and it made me think of this forum topic..

https://soundcloud.com/fuckmylife/78341316a

the song goes 7/8 - 3/4 - 13/16 then loops around

just saying... i'm glad to see people getting tired of just 4/4 128. (not saying 4/4 is inferior)

if only this was possible in bitwig, the possibilities!

[Ogopogo]

if only this was possible in bitwig, the possibilities!

I don't see anything from stopping you from doing it really, it just may not align with the numbers you are seeing. Just create a clip for that whole phrase, however long, and let it loop.

[TristanMendoza]

If this was going to happen, Bitwig would do it

[WXLF]

I don't see anything from stopping you from doing it really, it just may not align with the numbers you are seeing. Just create a clip for that whole phrase, however long, and let it loop.

It prevents me from using Maschine as a plug in, which I use quite often to program drums. With the way the scenes work inside maschine, it needs the host to automate the global parameters.

But you are right, it is definitely possible to do. I tried it once, but personally I found it too confusing. If there was only a few changes, it would be no big deal. But when it's constantly changing, I need a visual reference on the timeline.

[WXLF]

If this was going to happen, Bitwig would do it

I'm not worried about my layered idea. I would be happy with just the basic ability to change it

Which they are going to do Here is an email from them dated October 22, 2014.

"Hi, I am interested in Bitwig. I have read that there is no way to modulate the time signature as of now. My projects almost always include multiple time signatures, so this would break the deal for me unfortunately. Has this been implemented yet since release?

Bitwig Webshop <webshop@bitwig.com>
10/22/14

to me
Hello,

thank you for your e-mail.

At the moment it is not possible to modulate or automate time signature in Bitwig Studio. We have it on the list though so we hope to have it included in a future version of Bitwig Studio, so stay tuned!

Best regards,

Fredrik

--
... Bitwig GmbH

... http://www.bitwig.com
...
... Schwedter Straße 13
... 10119 Berlin
... Germany / Deutschland"

[WXLF]

I guess it's bad business to pay for something before you get it, but I don't mind supporting their developing ventures until then

[u-u-u]

+1 ( x1000 )

I like it how it's done in Ableton.
There you have these cue-marker-like time signature markers you can place in the timeline which practically have no other effect than influencing the grid lines shown in the arranger (and of course changing the bar numbers in the timeline).

The only thing missing for me there is the ability to loop time signature modulations (e.g. alternating between 4/4 and 7/8 ).
So as an improvement over Ableton I'd prefer an extra time signature clip track where i can place the signature-modulating clips (which also can be looped).

In general I think one global time signature modulation track would be enough.
Maybe the track groups could each have their own time signature (or if not defined, adopt the global one).
As clips already have their own timeline they only need an additional time signature property which also could be modulatable (also via clip expression modulation like gain, pitch etc.).

So my conclusion:

1. Time signature modulation is only there to influence the grid thich all edits snap to and to provide a visual representation of a song structure. Especially when zooming out it influences which gridlines remain visible (important for adaptive snapping of clips/notes!)
2. The structure I imagine:
   1. Global arranger time signature modulation <- track groups can adopt that or have their own TS <- clips can have their own.
   2. When created from scratch the track groups or clip automatically adopt the time signature of the the arranger/track group they are created in

[Dearly Deported]

+1 to this. This is the future.

[WXLF]

The structure I imagine:

1. Global arranger time signature modulation <- track groups can adopt that or have their own TS <- clips can have their own.

Yes! I agree. This would be really awesome. Something like that would really make this DAW feel "next generation."

[PresetNoob]

hmm. . i never heard of this, i watch some youtube videos on it and i like this, am gonna try it (i usually stay with one)