Endless possibilities - but everyone thinking along the same route?

[stratum]

What is "recognizable" is so because it's familiar. People recognize what they're used to. So the reason people aren't used to atonality is because it's... new. If you change something to the point that it's something else, that is now a new thing. Nothing just happens fully formed out of nowhere.

There is more to the problem than that. Tonal music is tonal, well because it is tonal. It is based on simple math that involve relationships between frequencies of notes and that either creates harmony or dissonance. Create or release tension and make sure that that is associated with some emotion. Add some structure upon that. Almost childish. Not that that would mean it is easy to be a composer, but "3 chords that ruled the world" type of music uses the same ideas that Beethoven did, because it makes sense to do so. When you turn that idea upside down it creates a sensation of dissonance only. Perhaps I need to reeducate my ears to work around it.

[harryupbabble]

But atonal music is not new now. It's been around for almost a century or more? It's like a failed experiment. How many more experiments are needed to conclude that mainstream humans reject it and probably will for a while. What if 10,000 years is needed for atonal music to "sink" in? Meanwhile we only have about 80 years lifespan.

[stratum]

It's like a failed experiment.

I could say so, but I'm trying to be humble. These were great musicians, after all. Not everybody can turn the theory upside down and still work with it.

[camsr]

We all like what we like, but to say that it's "stupid" or "idiotic" because it doesn't appeal to you is, well, I think we all know what that is.

It's one thing to express these ideas and another to have them. If you can successfully explain your point of view, you have shared your lack of enjoyment for a thing. To keep it to yourself can be uncomfortable, and dare I say conceited as well. Not only music, but anything that begets such retort is a reflection of the social aspect of music and life in general.

[ghettosynth]

We all like what we like, but to say that it's "stupid" or "idiotic" because it doesn't appeal to you is, well, I think we all know what that is.

It's one thing to express these ideas and another to have them. If you can successfully explain your point of view, you have shared your lack of enjoyment for a thing.

You can share your lack of enjoyment without labeling it as stupid. Moreover, to paint certain music so broadly with such a label generally invites valid criticism of the label. In short, I don't think such broad claims can generally be supported and are primarily just a reflection of the claimant's prejudices.

[jancivil]

Check it out, topic is "Endless Possibilities - but everyone thinking along the same lines" and the point is proven, for/by the group. I mentioned 'idiot syncopation' (self-evident, if you ever heard it) and here's a defense, 'not everything has to be creative'; no (duh) but were we talking about something?

Then, idiot argumentation regarding the very WORD composition. If that FRAME has been placed around the thing, there's your clue. FFS.

But, WTF this was never a forum for ideas. Talk among yourselves. About plugins.

[ghettosynth]

Actually, I'm very excited to tell all of you that, in reality, my participation here since 2009 has been a long form composition in the vein of 4'33". As you read my words, your groans and guffaws produce sounds, the sounds of anger, the sounds of disbelief, the sounds of disagreement, dare I say, the sounds of superiority.

Each member in the audience hears something different, but what he hears is a reflection of his own personality. My words, then, become a mirror to your psyche expressed through sound, yes, farts and all.

I've been trying to schedule a live performance of this work where each of my posts are read, along with up to fifty percent of the surrounding context, but, it's really challenging to find a venue willing to schedule the estimated 400 hours of continuous time required. Well, on my budget at least, donations gladly accepted, cash preferred.

So, at the moment, I've got the 16th street underpass confirmed, it smells a little bit like urine, and there's a lot of traffic, but it could work. I hope that many of you will come.

[jancivil]

if you set up a bunch of metronomes
different tempi
and wonder about, do they remain stable
'what actually happens'

this is an act of composition.
particularly if the person what done it says it is.
period.

if you don't get that,
regardless of whether or not this is 'serious' -
you're not.
you should be talking about something you get.
posturing and doing this smartass schtick
is merely a guy being a jackass

me caring is kind of stupid too, hey

you dissing me, ghetto, is the very picture of fatuous
forget pretentious, pretense could be a sign of growth

[mevla]

Actually, I'm very excited to tell all of you that, in reality, my participation here since 2009 has been a long form composition in the vein of 4'33". As you read my words, your groans and guffaws produce sounds, the sounds of anger, the sounds of disbelief, the sounds of disagreement, dare I say, the sounds of superiority.

Each member in the audience hears something different, but what he hears is a reflection of his own personality. My words, then, become a mirror to your psyche expressed through sound, yes, farts and all.

I've been trying to schedule a live performance of this work where each of my posts are read, along with up to fifty percent of the surrounding context, but, it's really challenging to find a venue willing to schedule the estimated 400 hours of continuous time required. Well, on my budget at least, donations gladly accepted, cash preferred.

So, at the moment, I've got the 16th street underpass confirmed, it smells a little bit like urine, and there's a lot of traffic, but it could work. I hope that many of you will come.

Sounds in line since no improv.

I tried an improv recently starting from one sentence from you:


- What was that ?
- An exhibition ? We need emotional content. (cue Bruce Lee video)


It fell flat.

So right, that's in line, no improv. No surprise. All self-contained after all, despite anything else.

[ghettosynth]

Actually, I'm very excited to tell all of you that, in reality, my participation here since 2009 has been a long form composition in the vein of 4'33". As you read my words, your groans and guffaws produce sounds, the sounds of anger, the sounds of disbelief, the sounds of disagreement, dare I say, the sounds of superiority.

Each member in the audience hears something different, but what he hears is a reflection of his own personality. My words, then, become a mirror to your psyche expressed through sound, yes, farts and all.

I've been trying to schedule a live performance of this work where each of my posts are read, along with up to fifty percent of the surrounding context, but, it's really challenging to find a venue willing to schedule the estimated 400 hours of continuous time required. Well, on my budget at least, donations gladly accepted, cash preferred.

So, at the moment, I've got the 16th street underpass confirmed, it smells a little bit like urine, and there's a lot of traffic, but it could work. I hope that many of you will come.

Sounds in line since no improv.

I tried an improv recently starting from one sentence from you:


- What was that ?
- An exhibition ? We need emotional content. (cue Bruce Lee video)


It fell flat.

So right, that's in line, no improv. No surprise. All self-contained after all, despite anything else.

Ah, but, you assume that your reactions are constant, I assure you, they won't be. The ebb and flow of groupthink will yield marvelous moments. It's a show not to be missed. Tickets further away from the urine cost more, should I put you down for two? (You'll probably want to bring a date to that part of town, best not to be alone.)

[camsr]

'not everything has to be creative'; no (duh) but were we talking about something?

How many variations of famous compositions exist? Plenty! It should be easy to see that someone with a fresh take on an old idea is by your definition, uncreative. Imagine the creator of the first "automobile", he might have thought that every car manufacturer after him had little creative talent, otherwise they could never build automobiles? I don't know a lot of people who would care.

[woggle]

one of my favourite performance pieces is by George Brecht "turn on the radio, at the first sound turn it off"

I played this with my kids in the car. Unlikely but true and a perfect moment, the first time I played this with the kids when they were little I turned on the radio, someone on the radio said "f**k" and i turned the radio off. We all laughed.


[for people not from Australia - we don't have the sorts of language taboos about swearing that lots of other countries have -although since the rise of the neo-cons Australia is far less progressive now than 20 years ago when I performed this for the kids]

[trampofnine]

Hi guys,

I'm just some kind of bedroom producer for fun and for myself, open for a lot of music. Mostly I listen to Ae like style, but also like 50% at home in the classical world, Shostakovich, Bruckner, also Purcell/Baroque etc. I'm playing clarinet since 5 years and currently I am recording and sorting my clarinet sounds, in order to be able to use them in whatever way. My dream is, ... I wish I could create a complex symphony from electronic instruments... which "works". "Works" to me means, in a musical way. I don't want weird instruments to be the selling point, but the music. Classical instruments work, because we learned, it's a cultural process, instrument x helps with feeling/emotion y. Electronic instruments are lacking this culture. This is basic challenge I think.
I see things also from this simple point: Classical composers like Shostakovich are great in creating complex works, great at music and music theory. They know which instrument can do what they need, which limits it has etc. etc.
But in in theory, we have more possibilities. We have an endless # of instruments (vst+fx). Still we create no big ideas. But we should be able to create even better music, but don't! Well, I want to try. Probably will fail but hey... fun.

OK, now sporadically going through the tutorials of friendly people on Youtube, I get soooo disappointed, as so many of them seem to think the same way.
- "Phat bass in Massive"
- "Phat leadz with Sylenth"
- "How to create a super wobble with serum"

I mean, they could do so much more but their way of thinking seems to lead to some generic sounding electronic dance music. It's disappointing! Guys like Ae show, there could be done so much more, just look at tracks like Pendulu Hv moda.. Open thinking! Phat Bass. Pffffft. Start experimenting with a weak bass. A broken bass. A whatever bass. A bass which is not a bass. Whatever serves the music you have in mind...

I don't know. Maybe I just want to say I watched the wrong tutorials

Thanks for your time.

Please keep a look out over April. I am also a bedroom music composer and producer. I have set about to solve the exact problem that you have: original, organic instrumental music. In my opinion I have found original, interesting solutions that produce complex tonal colours.

So over April, or at latest early May, I will be publishing a one hour album as above. It will be on bandcamp. My handle there is "Neptuned Experiment". Ignore any music that is there now: they were throw aways that don't relate to the album. It's a one hour album. Haven't decided the title yet.

There ARE answers that avoid all of the camp, passe wobble etc stuff. I compose all of my music first in Finale and that gives me complete composition control before I produce in FL Studio. So wait about a month or so and I will come back to this thread and discuss my answers!!!

[ghettosynth]

I think that this thread is destined to become a KVR classic. I'm calling it now.

[nineofkings]

But atonal music is not new now. It's been around for almost a century or more? It's like a failed experiment. How many more experiments are needed to conclude that mainstream humans reject it and probably will for a while. What if 10,000 years is needed for atonal music to "sink" in? Meanwhile we only have about 80 years lifespan.

This is a narrow view of how innovation happens. Just because people don't speed down the highway with Schoenberg pouring out the windows doesn't mean the ideas of atonal music haven't been incorporated into other things. If you've ever seen a movie with a score by John Williams you've heard moments of post-tonal ideas. If you've heard bebop you've heard arguably post-tonal ideas which came about a completely different way. People don't generally like listening to serialism or whatever, but its influence is real. We're not stuck with 1-4-5 forever.

It's irrelevant anyway how many people like it. The claim was "nothing new has developed in music theory since Bach" which is false.