What is conventionality/novelty in electronic music?
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1143 posts since 28 May, 2010 from Finland
It is not that there aren't tools, but there is fewer insight into how to make them produce something interesting. The generic FM is an easy example. I once thought this when I thought why FM8 couldn't have sample oscillators.
I've not heard many good Pd patches tbh.
I've not heard many good Pd patches tbh.
- KVRAF
- 3262 posts since 3 Jul, 2022
No but you missed the point.soundmodel wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 4:44 pm It is not that there aren't tools, but there is fewer insight into how to make them produce something interesting. The generic FM is an easy example. I once thought this when I thought why FM8 couldn't have sample oscillators.
I've not heard many good Pd patches tbh.
There is tools and tools.
You have the tools that are built to make you efficient and bring you quickly from A to B. Serum being the best example. ==> You don't want that for "novelty".
And you have the tools that help you to explore. The most iconic example is modular synthesis with crazy people plugging cables everywhere (don't quote me out of context here) to get strange sounding stuffs.
Bithwig/Grid is to my knowledge the absolute best example of that. It has a super open architecture with tons of stuffs to play with. And basically the limit is your imagination. You can rebuild from scratch wavetables, vector synthesis, physical synthesis, granular synthesis, not by taking a dedicated module but by creating your own assembling many micro modules...
Because at the end of the day. What you want is not really novelty what you want is explore new territories of sounds. The grid is your friend for that.
You can even invent the new type of synthesis that nobody has thought of yet and implement it in the grid.
- KVRAF
- 15331 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
... or "How to overcome midlife crisis"whyterabbyt wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 1:56 pm Starting to feel like the thread needs to be renamed to 'tips to overcome dunning kruger in understanding the history of electronic music'
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
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- addled muppet weed
- 106329 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
/takes notes to prepare for 50th birthday next week...BertKoor wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 6:28 pm... or "How to overcome midlife crisis"whyterabbyt wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 1:56 pm Starting to feel like the thread needs to be renamed to 'tips to overcome dunning kruger in understanding the history of electronic music'
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- addled muppet weed
- 106329 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
i was actually thinking along similar but not as extreme lines. not so much out of innovation, but wondering where music will go in the future?Bunny_boy wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:25 am I'll create a new genre now: mu-dance. Each song lasts 0.5s. To DJ takes quite a lot of tunes, and unfortunately the logistics of DJing vinyl as pretty poor.
Its got a few subgenres: one where the song is written conventionally then time stretched to 0.5s; one where existing songs are remixed to 0.5s, and one where the actual song is written as 0.5s
we see 15/30 second videos being hits on tt and yt, will music end up as 15 - 30 seconds, with full abacab arrangements?
- KVRAF
- 2583 posts since 20 Apr, 2005
Engineering and production are definitely important tools in modern production.soundmodel wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 6:22 pm Yes, to being with, I think electronic music production is half engineering and half art. Most musicians only explore it as consumers of engineering. Yet some combine them.
It could almost be argued that they're almost as important as composition, musicianship and instruments.
Certainly it can elevate a track from good to great, or great to amazing.
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- KVRist
- 314 posts since 23 Feb, 2023
20-30 years ago there was much simpler soft to use & mostly sample-based or straight MIDI workflow clean & clear & few distractions.. nowadays synths, sequencers, DAWs all over the place providing many distractions & also level of music shifting from musical creativity to one-finger dabbler stacking tons of FX way overmodulated or using 'construction kit' or 'MIDI chord packs'... Folks if you gotta buy a construction kit or a MIDI chord pack it's time to 'dabble' in some other hobby...
Also purpose of actually making music has changed, many want 'views' or 'comments' or weirder 'monetization' all adds up to dopamine hit. I see all kinda YT vids with dabblers having tons of equipment yet music is basic, tasteless & krappy. You don't need tons of stuff you need the concept of music you can make music in anything it's good to try simple workflows... I do music in simple 23 year-old tracker that's only 460kb-
https://alonetone.com/TalkOrBell/tracks/axs-jazzmonger
That's most recent, then-
https://soundcloud.com/waxing-and-waning/pulp-friction
I closed that account but music is still up... Frickin' soundcloud...
Tracker with single synth & the rest samples... Yeah I use better too but matters not...
The upshot is that if you are not makin' something YOU wanna listen to (not anybody else) then you are in the wrong hobby...
Also purpose of actually making music has changed, many want 'views' or 'comments' or weirder 'monetization' all adds up to dopamine hit. I see all kinda YT vids with dabblers having tons of equipment yet music is basic, tasteless & krappy. You don't need tons of stuff you need the concept of music you can make music in anything it's good to try simple workflows... I do music in simple 23 year-old tracker that's only 460kb-
https://alonetone.com/TalkOrBell/tracks/axs-jazzmonger
That's most recent, then-
https://soundcloud.com/waxing-and-waning/pulp-friction
I closed that account but music is still up... Frickin' soundcloud...
Tracker with single synth & the rest samples... Yeah I use better too but matters not...
The upshot is that if you are not makin' something YOU wanna listen to (not anybody else) then you are in the wrong hobby...
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- KVRAF
- 2187 posts since 23 Nov, 2016 from a small city
Who did the Commercial Album? The Replacements? The one that's only verse-chorus. While I can't see it being all music, I can see it as being some sort of umbrella genre of songs which are just hook only, or like you say, really compressed.vurt wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 6:55 pmi was actually thinking along similar but not as extreme lines. not so much out of innovation, but wondering where music will go in the future?Bunny_boy wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:25 am I'll create a new genre now: mu-dance. Each song lasts 0.5s. To DJ takes quite a lot of tunes, and unfortunately the logistics of DJing vinyl as pretty poor.
Its got a few subgenres: one where the song is written conventionally then time stretched to 0.5s; one where existing songs are remixed to 0.5s, and one where the actual song is written as 0.5s
we see 15/30 second videos being hits on tt and yt, will music end up as 15 - 30 seconds, with full abacab arrangements?
Does this make Naked City the godfathers of your new musical experience?
I used to be Bunnyboy many many years ago
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- KVRAF
- 2187 posts since 23 Nov, 2016 from a small city
How modern is modern? George Martin?_leras wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 8:09 pmEngineering and production are definitely important tools in modern production.soundmodel wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 6:22 pm Yes, to being with, I think electronic music production is half engineering and half art. Most musicians only explore it as consumers of engineering. Yet some combine them.
I used to be Bunnyboy many many years ago
- KVRAF
- 3262 posts since 3 Jul, 2022
Well, I just listen to your track and it is a fun little track, no question.eLawnMust wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 8:16 pm 20-30 years ago there was much simpler soft to use & mostly sample-based or straight MIDI workflow clean & clear & few distractions.. nowadays synths, sequencers, DAWs all over the place providing many distractions & also level of music shifting from musical creativity to one-finger dabbler stacking tons of FX way overmodulated or using 'construction kit' or 'MIDI chord packs'... Folks if you gotta buy a construction kit or a MIDI chord pack it's time to 'dabble' in some other hobby...
Also purpose of actually making music has changed, many want 'views' or 'comments' or weirder 'monetization' all adds up to dopamine hit. I see all kinda YT vids with dabblers having tons of equipment yet music is basic, tasteless & krappy. You don't need tons of stuff you need the concept of music you can make music in anything it's good to try simple workflows... I do music in simple 23 year-old tracker that's only 460kb-
https://alonetone.com/TalkOrBell/tracks/axs-jazzmonger
That's most recent, then-
https://soundcloud.com/waxing-and-waning/pulp-friction
I closed that account but music is still up... Frickin' soundcloud...
Tracker with single synth & the rest samples... Yeah I use better too but matters not...
The upshot is that if you are not makin' something YOU wanna listen to (not anybody else) then you are in the wrong hobby...
But to me, I clearly see the limitations of the tool (and it reminds me myself using trackers 30 years ago). The way the song is interpreted is super robotic, there is no groove involved (a feature you have in DAW but not in trackers), on the hihats, they are all exactly the same, there should be randomness in the velocity, texture.
So in this case, despite your talent and effort, I still feel you are limited by the tool, in particular in a genre like jazz.
- KVRAF
- 16616 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California
Agreed with Jac on this one. You're loaded with talent and great ideas. I love your harmonic progressions and transitions. The tools are the only parts of this equation that aren't fantastic.
Anyway, I get your point about making what you want to listen to. Hopefully you'll take what I'm saying as an acknowledgment and not as a critique.
- KVRAF
- 10439 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo
Mixing is an art in itself. It's almost entirely subjective with very little actual technical parts, in my opinion. As long as you keep the overall frequency response in a way that your vision translates to various sound systems, the rest is pure art._leras wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 8:09 pmEngineering and production are definitely important tools in modern production.soundmodel wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 6:22 pm Yes, to being with, I think electronic music production is half engineering and half art. Most musicians only explore it as consumers of engineering. Yet some combine them.
It could almost be argued that they're almost as important as composition, musicianship and instruments.
Certainly it can elevate a track from good to great, or great to amazing.
So yeah, I completely agree. If you have a really simple and sparse arrangement with not much going on harmonically or melody wise, then the way it sounds can be the majority of the appeal of a track.
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot
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- KVRAF
- 6438 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
Sometimes all that is needed is chord progression and a brilliant arrangement and drama progression
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c56t7upa8Bk
at least it reels me in....
If it was in the 70's the song 'Pop corn' was probably one of the first synth based hits. It brought novelty...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjxNnqTcHhg
Were they even thinking 'genre' or 'electronic music'?
- I don't think so
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c56t7upa8Bk
at least it reels me in....
If it was in the 70's the song 'Pop corn' was probably one of the first synth based hits. It brought novelty...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjxNnqTcHhg
Were they even thinking 'genre' or 'electronic music'?
- I don't think so
- KVRAF
- 3262 posts since 3 Jul, 2022
Yeah.... Such bunch of losers .
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- KVRAF
- 4010 posts since 20 Feb, 2004
Really dig jazzmonger, sounds like maybe a slower Squarepusher? Nice oneeLawnMust wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 8:16 pm https://alonetone.com/TalkOrBell/tracks/axs-jazzmonger
That's most recent, then-
https://soundcloud.com/waxing-and-waning/pulp-friction
I closed that account but music is still up... Frickin' soundcloud...
Tracker with single synth & the rest samples... Yeah I use better too but matters not...
The upshot is that if you are not makin' something YOU wanna listen to (not anybody else) then you are in the wrong hobby...
Pulp Friction has some good ideas but I think it's let down by the production/sound-quality.
Anyways, it's pretty impressive that you're able to do these with such a minimal setup. I'd venture that most of us here are plugin/gear collectors to some degree, and it's nice to be reminded that a lot of it really isn't necessary to make good music.
A well-behaved signature.