How to create that fat EBM bassline?

[kfredst]

Hello everybody.

I read in an earlier tread the discussion on how to create a fat EBM bassline. I am thinking of that dry detuned basssound like the ones Nitzer Ebb (ex. control I'm here), Spetznaz and Daf, and just about every EBM, Futurepop, and endzeit electro band have used in one way or another (Front 242, VNV Nation, Icon Of Coil etc)

I am struggeling to create a similar bassline in my VSTs.... I have made a somewhat similar sound in Prologue (of Cubase 4), but it's not quite there. I have a few synths: V-Station, Vanguard, Sylenth1, Tone2 Firebird, Nexus + the ones included in Cubase.

A sound example can be found at: www.myspace.com/modcom - the bassline that kicks in at 20 seconds in the song "VNV Nation - Chrome (Modcom remix)" is what I am looking for.

Can anybody give some hints about what kind of synth that is used? FM? Subtractive? Anybody know of a VST synth that has this kind of patch? Or do anybody have a patch thay are willing to share? Or do anybody have any hints on how this sound is made in general (waveforms, filters etc). I have little knowledge in sound design and synths in general (too little, i know...), and mainly just tweak presets in my songmaking.

Any help and your time would be very much appreciated:-)

Ken/Norway

[binaryzero]

that remix specifically is a modular.

in fact if you look in modcom's myspace there's plenty of pics of the setups,
unfortunately i'm crap with knowing who makes the modules used in the racks.

alot of vnv nation is the virus B and some reaktor ensembles.
(actually on futureperfect the detuning was so strong on the basslines, they phase out in mono.)

Icon of Coil - Seb is mainly virus. he's even written a patchbank for the C series on the access site.
his tips on how he achieves basslines is to stack them up and don't be afraid to run them through an external filter.
one for sub, one for midrange, one for the high end.
gives you pretty good options to sculpt the sound you want, and it allows you to pan, delay, reverb, whatever on the top end without losing the mono thump for the bottom.



all the synths you've listed should be more than able to get you some pumpy stuff. just combine them and make sure the rhythms you program lock tight to the drums.

[kfredst]

Thank you for your input Bineryzero!

Yeah, I know Modcom is all modular (did see him live at christmas), just wanted to make an example of the sound:-) I know Icon of Coil use a lot of Virus (I posted with Seb at the Sideline forum), and that Futureperfect was mainly Reaktor and Logic plug ins. I am bit "scared" to take on the Reaktor, it seems just so "much" (yeah, I'm a bit lazy....). Thanks for your layering tips, and I will go for a try with my synths, I have also gotten an recommendation for Zebra 2 (it looks a little complicated and "scary" interface). Do you know if these kind of sounds are mainly sawtooth sounds?

[chicken muffin]

forget trying to sound like a/b artist. or else you will be nothing but a facsimile of a/b artist. do your own thing. it always works to be yourself. i know your expecting me to spout off how to sonicly recreate such and such famous bassline. ain't happening. i believe every artist has to find there own formula. you have to find yours. don't make another artist inspirations yours. make your ideas your inspiration

[dan_s]

try w/ vstation, use 3 saws, detune one up and one down 24cents, play with the filter knobs to taste, i also turned the FM lvl knob halfway, i dunno what it does but it sounded better. maybe a sprinkle of ring mob too, no more then halfway, maybe detune the 3rd saw up or down 50 cents too, really everything besides 3 detuned saws is up to you to get the sound you want,

[binaryzero]

i have a small problem with the "find your own way" advice.

if one doesn't learn how to do certain things,
how are you expected to achieve your goals?

i mean presets in synths and effects are there for a reason,
you can see how a sound is made.
when people post on kvr about psytrance or tech house basslines,
it's just a technique, a new weapon in one's arsenal.

not every artist can sit with a blank plugin and just know how to do something.
people ask the artist questions because they're just starting out,
it doesn't mean their going to clone an artist.
everyone starts out somewhere and music theory, production and sound design knowledge doesn't just appear from thin air in someone's mind.
it requires someone to teach it, it has to be out there to be learned.

personal feelings on genres aside, why is it the trance, house, and drum n bass genres have no problem exchanging ideas and tutorials, but industrial is very "secretive"?
no wonder things become stagnant, if artists aren't willing to help out about production and sound design no wonder we're drowning in nexus, virus, and vanguard presets.

[BONES]

That specific bassline, which I don't think I've ever heard on Nitzer Ebb or Front242 songs, requires unison and relatively low cutoff values in your LP Filter, usually with some envelope modulation and either velocity or an LFO to make it move over time. Its what a lot of people would recognise as the "SuperSaw" sound. If you have a decent sound to start with, I don't see any reason to layer bass sounds. If it needs more top end, increase the filter resonance. Of course, it depends on what you are ultimately trying to achieve - sometimes we layer a bassline with a distorted version of itself - but I'd look for one sound that works, rather than trying to juggle multiple sound and still get something coherent and easy to work other sounds around.

[chicken muffin]

i have a small problem with the "find your own way" advice.

if one doesn't learn how to do certain things,
how are you expected to achieve your goals?

i mean presets in synths and effects are there for a reason,
you can see how a sound is made.
when people post on kvr about psytrance or tech house basslines,
it's just a technique, a new weapon in one's arsenal.

not every artist can sit with a blank plugin and just know how to do something.
people ask the artist questions because they're just starting out,
it doesn't mean their going to clone an artist.
everyone starts out somewhere and music theory, production and sound design knowledge doesn't just appear from thin air in someone's mind.
it requires someone to teach it, it has to be out there to be learned.

personal feelings on genres aside, why is it the trance, house, and drum n bass genres have no problem exchanging ideas and tutorials, but industrial is very "secretive"?
no wonder things become stagnant, if artists aren't willing to help out about production and sound design no wonder we're drowning in nexus, virus, and vanguard presets.

hmm. no i see what you mean. im not trying to be secretive. growing as an artist i was always told to 'experiment' when i asked production questions. i was never given a direct how to answer. and thats how i learned to craft my own sound.

so answering the question of the orignal poster, what i do to create an ebm bassline is, not do it with an arpegiator but rather by hand. layer samplers or synths. use a low 24 filter at a low cutoff point. start with 16 and work my way up to 32 notes for energy. add distortion.(a tube style works best.

i adjust the swing to (using regrove mixer) i try to find one basic bass sample or sound (to shape it) then use two completely different sounds (to give it flavor. i usually place the basic bassline at a low octave and the two other basses at one or two higher. sometimes i adjust the rez to make the bassline more brighter. i hate dirty basslines so i try to keep my bassline very clean as the more dirt you add the harder it is to fit it into a smooth mix. then i tweak to taste

[chicken muffin]

no wonder things become stagnant, if artists aren't willing to help out about production and sound design no wonder we're drowning in nexus, virus, and vanguard presets.

not every artist uses cliche sounds and synths. there all still those that prefer to sound unique

[dan_s]

not every artist uses cliche sounds and synths. there all still those that prefer to sound unique

I had bacon brownies once, is that anything like a chicken muffin?

[kfredst]

Hello everybody! Thanks a lot for your time and posts!

@DSZEP
That got me real close! I troubled with the basic patch, but when I tried the same tuning to the basic bass patch (bass101), it got really close! The detuning and the FM level was the main things, and then some basic tuning on freq and effects. Thank you very much.

@Chicken Muffin and BinaryZero
I very much agree with you both! I guess we all seek innovation and unique sounds, and I really admire those who find innovation areas (like NitzerEbb, Daf, Kraftwerk, Skinny Puppy, VNV Nation, Apop, Icon of Coil or whatever). But like BinaryZero states, I think that Industrial/EBM also should be allowed to focus on good songs with "proved" sounds that works, like in pop, metal, or other electronic genres. Take electroclash, not very "new", but very fun and nice to listen to (at least i think). The ideal would be both new and good:-) My main goal for the question was both to learn, AND to make that wicked bassline a love to hear in one of my own songs.

@Bones
Downloaded some of your synths, will give them a try, thanks! And listened to your Myspace songs while writing this post. Nice stuff from down under, a bit of 242ish soundscape:-) I think there is a lot of similarity between NitzerEbb Control I'm Here and the Modcom stuff in terms of bassline, at least in my ears:-) I agree that stuff like Masterhit and the wicked bassline in Heathunter by Front242 are a bit diffent (although I would love to re-create the Headhunter one...). Thanks for your advise!

[BONES]

I've never really understood the enduring appeal of Headhunter. It sounds great live but the original recording, like a lot of their stuff, is very average. I never bought any of those Headhunter2000 remix discs. The bass sound they used was a very strange choice in my book. It kind of worked but they have many better songs from that period IMHO, like Never Stop and Welcome to Paradise.

[Koe:rade]

I've never really understood the enduring appeal of Headhunter. It sounds great live but the original recording, like a lot of their stuff, is very average. I never bought any of those Headhunter2000 remix discs. The bass sound they used was a very strange choice in my book. It kind of worked but they have many better songs from that period IMHO, like Never Stop and Welcome to Paradise.

Oh, you've got to love Headhunter.. But I agree they do have better songs from that period. Though isn't that always the way? Band's best songs are never their most popular.

Great bass sound IMO (Headhunter, that is). I think perhaps that illustrates chickenmuffin's point. You don't get unique, ever-lasting, bass sounds by recreating someone elses'. It's a great way to learn though, and hey, perhaps you want to craft the lead out of samples of your kitchen taps... but you just need a standard fat bassline underneath =)

[dan_s]

Hello everybody! Thanks a lot for your time and posts!

@DSZEP
That got me real close! I troubled with the basic patch, but when I tried the same tuning to the basic bass patch (bass101), it got really close! The detuning and the FM level was the main things, and then some basic tuning on freq and effects. Thank you very much.

cool, i was really trying to test my own ability to hear a sound and recreate it, im happy for us both

[binaryzero]

man, i think people seriously misread me here.

what i'm trying to say is by learning things like production, mixing, patch design, etc. through tutorials and shared information,
you learn how to translate what's in your head onto the synth/sequencer/etc.
as opposed to starting off completely blind.

understanding why a supersaw patch sounds the way it does or why an fm bass sounds the way it does gives you the tools to create your own sounds by learning your way around a synth.
much like how doctors dissect a body to learn more about how it works.

kfredst might have certain sounds in mind that are similar to another artist,
but by no means does it mean the resulting creations will resemble them.