I know a lot of people ask about meshing their kicks with sub basslines or their sub kicks with basslines etc. I've been listening to a lot of techy bass tracks lately and with some I notice when the kick is isolated (like on an intro) it seems to have a long decay and sub tone behind it, but when the bass drops it seems to have sub frequencies as well. I've been messing around with sidechain compression but find that I have duck the sub bass an unnatural amount to avoid that short muddle sound when they both occupy that region. I have tried to get the tone of my kick (im using layers) to match the bass pitch but have no fine-pitch control so it could be a little wierd?
Here is a track as an example that I would like some opinions on the bass / kick construction. Notice how long the kick tone is at the intro and also the sub bass on the drop. Theres a blog link with streaming for hifi, and a youtube link too.
http://www.dancefloormayhem.com/2009/05 ... bobba.html
Two different kicks? Is the sub on the off beats and the kick tone in key? Is there some pychoacoustic stuff going on? This bassline is so sick I would love to know how it's done.
Tracks with long sub kicks AND sub bass lines?
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- KVRian
- 614 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Gloucestershire
Running it through a spectrum analyser shows the main frequency of the kick is about 49Hz, which is note G1, so it was no surprise to find that nice bass synth hovering around a higher G.
49Hz is surprisingly low (for me anyway), they might have used another, shorter kick an octave up, for a defined hit.
Clarity of the bass is all about frequency separation here, that's my guess anyway.
Dave H.
49Hz is surprisingly low (for me anyway), they might have used another, shorter kick an octave up, for a defined hit.
Clarity of the bass is all about frequency separation here, that's my guess anyway.
Dave H.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 8 posts since 26 Oct, 2009
Thanks for the reply! So you think maybe the bass and sub kick tone are happening at roughly the same time and it works because they are the same note an octave apart? How much higher is G2, frequency wise? It feels like the sub bass notes between the bass kicks on 1234 are pretty low.
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- KVRian
- 797 posts since 23 Apr, 2009
There's an easy way to calculate an octave higher, it's simply double the frequency.buckbuck wrote:Thanks for the reply! So you think maybe the bass and sub kick tone are happening at roughly the same time and it works because they are the same note an octave apart? How much higher is G2, frequency wise? It feels like the sub bass notes between the bass kicks on 1234 are pretty low.
For me, when I have to tune a kick to a bassline, I don't worry about getting the tail of the kick exactly matched to the bass, as the kick is a decending tone, and a bassline can be multiple notes. Just use your ear and a spectrum and tune your kick until it sounds good. Certain samplers, like Battery, and Linplug RMIV have pitch envelopes that you can use to alter the rate in which the kick's pitch will drop. This can be very handy for finesse-ing the tail without altering the tone of the transient when tuning. The same goes for synthesized kicks (one of the advantages of synthesizing)
Psycho-acoustically, a lot of the time, if you have a long subby kick drum, you dont actually need much sub bass in your bassline to gain the perception of a subby bass. Just having a bit there + the kick's sub will give an overall impression of bass pressure. A little EQ boost on the kick at the right frequency can work wonders for this.
Conversely, you can notch a hole in your kick to slot a sub-bass in. This works well when you have a static pitch bassline and a kick that has a wide frequency range. You could even go to the trouble of setting up multiple notches/EQ's, for different notes.
Another technique suitable for breaks and DnB would be to switch a roll off EQ on (on the kick) when the bass is playing with the kick. This will free up space but you will loose some of the kick's punch. If done right you can trick the ear into thinking it's still there by having the bass play in time with the kick.
While it's good to know about these EQ techniques, My favourite way of making sure a kick and bassline gel is to create them together, starting with the kick, and going back and forth, scrolling thru kicks and tweaking the bass. I always have s LP filter set at around 120hz on my mix bus, and I turn that on and listen to whats going on in the 120-40 range. You kick should poke above the sub (do a test render), and the sub-bass should sound clean without rumble or phase interpolation. When I say phase interpolation I don't mean how nice it looks visually, but how it sounds. Sometimes the waveform will look quite untidy but it may sound great.
Be cafeful if you're mutiband compressing this area as you can destroy the important dynamics responsible for the low end punch, and rhythmic separation. A little bit of compression can do well tho, if you need a more constant sound.
A speaker does "roll off" at a certain frequency. Good monitors should remain accurate until about 50hz, so don't trick yourself into compressing or eq'ing the 30-50 hz signal too high - this will eat up your headroom like no tomorrow and it will sound odd on a big system.
A very loose rule of thumb for me would be Kick peaking at -6, sub at -9, and top bass (bass harmonics) at -12. It won't be that way for every track but you can see the relationship.
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- KVRian
- 797 posts since 23 Apr, 2009
In the example there's a medium (not long) sine wave synth style kick drum (909ish) that's been EQ'd up around 50hz and a gentle notch around 100 *a bit higher probably). It's doesn't have much harmonic content or click. The bass is a nice analog style one osc saw wave with automated LP filter and pitch envelopes (and an amp envelope). It's got a boosted low end and probably rolled off below that to make room for the kick (classical HPF resonant style shape). You don't need a separate sub bass with a 1 osc saw bass like this. Classic miami SH-101 or MS-20 type sound.
On the first beat you can hear the pitch envelope come in, making the tom like sound, and you can hear it doesn't duck with the kick (no sidechain). The other main feature of the bass is the "wom" sound - that's the filter envelope with a slow attack. It sounds compressed as well.
You could make something pretty much identical with a vengeance sample CD and a minimonsta vsti (and a decent EQ and compressor o/c)
It's a pretty heavy master, as there's not much going on so they've pushed the limiting/compression (You can hear the bass sounds relatively loud in comparison to the kick - it would have been mixed lower).
On the first beat you can hear the pitch envelope come in, making the tom like sound, and you can hear it doesn't duck with the kick (no sidechain). The other main feature of the bass is the "wom" sound - that's the filter envelope with a slow attack. It sounds compressed as well.
You could make something pretty much identical with a vengeance sample CD and a minimonsta vsti (and a decent EQ and compressor o/c)
It's a pretty heavy master, as there's not much going on so they've pushed the limiting/compression (You can hear the bass sounds relatively loud in comparison to the kick - it would have been mixed lower).
Last edited by TankEyes on Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRian
- 797 posts since 23 Apr, 2009
Your very welcomebuckbuck wrote:TankEyes: do you take paypal donations?
For real though, i appreciate the time. Very informative.
Your post was well written, made me wanna help you out.-
- KVRist
- 64 posts since 2 Dec, 2004
What a great thread! Thank you both for your help. Forgive the amateurish question to follow, but here goes:
Tankeyes said:
"A very loose rule of thumb for me would be Kick peaking at -6, sub at -9, and top bass (bass harmonics) at -12. It won't be that way for every track but you can see the relationship."
Are these the peak levels on your master out after eq and compression?
And if you have mixed your kick/top bass/sub bass well, then each will have enough breathing room to sound distinct and "loud enough" at those peak levels?
Thanks again guys!
Cheers,
Alex
Tankeyes said:
"A very loose rule of thumb for me would be Kick peaking at -6, sub at -9, and top bass (bass harmonics) at -12. It won't be that way for every track but you can see the relationship."
Are these the peak levels on your master out after eq and compression?
And if you have mixed your kick/top bass/sub bass well, then each will have enough breathing room to sound distinct and "loud enough" at those peak levels?
Thanks again guys!
Cheers,
Alex
Mac Pro 2.8 Quad5/4.0 Gb Ram/OSX 10.5/Logic Pro 8/korg Legacy Collection/MS20 controller/AAS ultra analog//Vanguard/MFM2/Ohmforce/CamelPhat/Ozone/Moog Rogue
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- KVRist
- 64 posts since 2 Dec, 2004
Another quick follow up question. As the kick above is at 49hz, clearly it hasn't been rolled off at 50.
What frequency should I roll off my other instruments (and kick at that) to as not to muddy the mix? Is 50hz for synths/percussion and 20hz for bass and kicks reasonable?
Could you please share your rule of thumb for this please tankeyes?
Cheers,
Alex
What frequency should I roll off my other instruments (and kick at that) to as not to muddy the mix? Is 50hz for synths/percussion and 20hz for bass and kicks reasonable?
Could you please share your rule of thumb for this please tankeyes?
Cheers,
Alex
Mac Pro 2.8 Quad5/4.0 Gb Ram/OSX 10.5/Logic Pro 8/korg Legacy Collection/MS20 controller/AAS ultra analog//Vanguard/MFM2/Ohmforce/CamelPhat/Ozone/Moog Rogue
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- KVRian
- 797 posts since 23 Apr, 2009
Hi Alex.
"Are these the peak levels on your master out after eq and compression?"
Those are PRE sweetening and mastering levels. If you're making a big house tune, at the end of the day, assuming you're doing your own rough master, your kick should be as close to 0db as you can get it.
Personally, I like to have my limiter + eq on my mixbus, usually off while I'm writing the tune, and switched on every so often to demo how the track will sound with masting compression. When you get a mix sounding good before any of the mix bus magic, the final product is going to be that much sweeter.
(Note: I also have a LP filter to monitor the sub content, and a mono mixer to monitor the mono mixdown)
However, there's a bit of a dance you have to do, between making your mix sound good uncompressed, and making it sound good when it's been processed. You might have noticed, snare drums usually need to be mixed a bit louder when compressed, and at the same time, reverb levels might need to be lowered.
The more you compress your mix, the less "middle ground room" you have to play with, and thus your sonic stage becomes shorter. That is really one of the identifying features of say, Miami style house music.
"Another quick follow up question. As the kick above is at 49hz, clearly it hasn't been rolled off at 50. "
Just to be clear I said EQ'd UP, not rolled off. Don't know if that's what you meant.
"What frequency should I roll off my other instruments (and kick at that) to as not to muddy the mix? Is 50hz for synths/percussion and 20hz for bass and kicks reasonable?"
For things like leads and pads playing when the bass and kick are going -
Lets say we have a bass that centres around G1 as the fundamental (sub). 49Hz is then our reference point. 98 Hz is going to be where the next harmonic for that note will sit. In a two part setup, 49Hz will be your sub synth, and 98hz is going to be where the fundamental of your "top synth" will sit. I'd say that as long as this space is free from major interference from other instruments, you'll be OK. So in answer to your question, the number would be just above double your sub freq (with a 24db/oct slope)
But I gotta stress that this is only a rule of thumb, and it could get you in trouble. Sometimes a lead synth needs that low frequency body to sound good. Gently adjusting the roll off point and it's slope until you've reached a compromise is the way to go, after you have your reference point.
That's why EQ's with a variable roll off slope are so handy. I love my oxford!
In general, rolling off to reduce mud is a great practice, but also something that shouldn't really matter much - as a frequency content of your chosen sounds should be "slotting in" to your mix nicely. Rolling off should be that final touch that just cleans it up a bit.
As for a general rule about rolling off kick and bass - well, that's tricky, because of what I talked about in my last post. Your kick and bass should compliment each other. Sometimes that means a roll off for the kick, sometimes for the bass.
Although average speakers drop off at around 50hz, doesn't mean your tunes shouldn't have 30-40hz content. With a decent subwoofer you can definitely hear 30-40 hertz, and more importantly, feel it through the soles of your shoes in a club. Below 20hz tho - you're just wasting headroom.
A bit about separation..
All of these ideas can be boiled down to one concept - separation. Mixing a tune so that every element has it's own space, and prominent frequencies.
When I'm stuck sometimes I like to use analysing EQ's (voxengo curve EQ, MeldaAutoEQ) to help me get a feel for how two signals are overlapping. They work like this:
1. play track A into the eq with "capture source spectrum" mode on.
2. play track B into the eq with "capture target spectrum" mode on.
3. Analyse spectrum and apply EQ to apply the frequency makeup of A to B.
By looking at the calculated EQ curve, you can see where they differ and where they match. From there you can use it as a guide for where you need to EQ to gain more separation.
Perhaps unfortunately, you can't mix a whole bunch of similar instruments by carving out little spaces for them in the spectrum (I tried it, it sounds bizzarre
). Drastically separating elements in the mix will impart a cold and clinical vibe to your tune, that is often perceived as being over produced. As listeners, people like a bit of an "untidy mix", in the same way a live band or even natural everyday sound is organised. What you can do, is pick complimentary sounds and gently finesse them with EQ, compression, reverb, stereo width, and all the other tools we have so they stay out of each others way for the most part.
"Are these the peak levels on your master out after eq and compression?"
Those are PRE sweetening and mastering levels. If you're making a big house tune, at the end of the day, assuming you're doing your own rough master, your kick should be as close to 0db as you can get it.
Personally, I like to have my limiter + eq on my mixbus, usually off while I'm writing the tune, and switched on every so often to demo how the track will sound with masting compression. When you get a mix sounding good before any of the mix bus magic, the final product is going to be that much sweeter.
(Note: I also have a LP filter to monitor the sub content, and a mono mixer to monitor the mono mixdown)
However, there's a bit of a dance you have to do, between making your mix sound good uncompressed, and making it sound good when it's been processed. You might have noticed, snare drums usually need to be mixed a bit louder when compressed, and at the same time, reverb levels might need to be lowered.
The more you compress your mix, the less "middle ground room" you have to play with, and thus your sonic stage becomes shorter. That is really one of the identifying features of say, Miami style house music.
"Another quick follow up question. As the kick above is at 49hz, clearly it hasn't been rolled off at 50. "
Just to be clear I said EQ'd UP, not rolled off. Don't know if that's what you meant.
"What frequency should I roll off my other instruments (and kick at that) to as not to muddy the mix? Is 50hz for synths/percussion and 20hz for bass and kicks reasonable?"
For things like leads and pads playing when the bass and kick are going -
Lets say we have a bass that centres around G1 as the fundamental (sub). 49Hz is then our reference point. 98 Hz is going to be where the next harmonic for that note will sit. In a two part setup, 49Hz will be your sub synth, and 98hz is going to be where the fundamental of your "top synth" will sit. I'd say that as long as this space is free from major interference from other instruments, you'll be OK. So in answer to your question, the number would be just above double your sub freq (with a 24db/oct slope)
But I gotta stress that this is only a rule of thumb, and it could get you in trouble. Sometimes a lead synth needs that low frequency body to sound good. Gently adjusting the roll off point and it's slope until you've reached a compromise is the way to go, after you have your reference point.
That's why EQ's with a variable roll off slope are so handy. I love my oxford!
In general, rolling off to reduce mud is a great practice, but also something that shouldn't really matter much - as a frequency content of your chosen sounds should be "slotting in" to your mix nicely. Rolling off should be that final touch that just cleans it up a bit.
As for a general rule about rolling off kick and bass - well, that's tricky, because of what I talked about in my last post. Your kick and bass should compliment each other. Sometimes that means a roll off for the kick, sometimes for the bass.
Although average speakers drop off at around 50hz, doesn't mean your tunes shouldn't have 30-40hz content. With a decent subwoofer you can definitely hear 30-40 hertz, and more importantly, feel it through the soles of your shoes in a club. Below 20hz tho - you're just wasting headroom.
A bit about separation..
All of these ideas can be boiled down to one concept - separation. Mixing a tune so that every element has it's own space, and prominent frequencies.
When I'm stuck sometimes I like to use analysing EQ's (voxengo curve EQ, MeldaAutoEQ) to help me get a feel for how two signals are overlapping. They work like this:
1. play track A into the eq with "capture source spectrum" mode on.
2. play track B into the eq with "capture target spectrum" mode on.
3. Analyse spectrum and apply EQ to apply the frequency makeup of A to B.
By looking at the calculated EQ curve, you can see where they differ and where they match. From there you can use it as a guide for where you need to EQ to gain more separation.
Perhaps unfortunately, you can't mix a whole bunch of similar instruments by carving out little spaces for them in the spectrum (I tried it, it sounds bizzarre
). Drastically separating elements in the mix will impart a cold and clinical vibe to your tune, that is often perceived as being over produced. As listeners, people like a bit of an "untidy mix", in the same way a live band or even natural everyday sound is organised. What you can do, is pick complimentary sounds and gently finesse them with EQ, compression, reverb, stereo width, and all the other tools we have so they stay out of each others way for the most part.-
- KVRist
- 64 posts since 2 Dec, 2004
I am speechless - 
thank you TankEyes for such a profound mixing lesson. I am truly grateful. It will take me a while to process all you have described.
Thanks again. Just makes me thin. - where would I (or, more importantly my music) be without KVR?
Cheers,
Alex
thank you TankEyes for such a profound mixing lesson. I am truly grateful. It will take me a while to process all you have described.Thanks again. Just makes me thin. - where would I (or, more importantly my music) be without KVR?
Cheers,
Alex
Mac Pro 2.8 Quad5/4.0 Gb Ram/OSX 10.5/Logic Pro 8/korg Legacy Collection/MS20 controller/AAS ultra analog//Vanguard/MFM2/Ohmforce/CamelPhat/Ozone/Moog Rogue
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- KVRAF
- 5556 posts since 26 Apr, 2007 from Noosphere
So it's mean that EQ separation needed in lows only. In mid and high mid it's not so important.(claps, hats) Isn't it'?
AND, if anyway hard sidechain will be used for kick and bass, then they still can occupy the same frequencies? As seems like it's the only opportunity.
AND, if anyway hard sidechain will be used for kick and bass, then they still can occupy the same frequencies? As seems like it's the only opportunity.