Hey,

So I've been struggling with this ALOT. And when I say ALOT I mean for over a year, and I'm still sitting here in the same position, even how much I practice, read up on theory, etc.

This is really frustrating. I know that music takes time and I'm really going all in for it.

I'd wish to make something "hooky" such as this melody:

http://soundcloud.com/maisondragen/maison-dragen-wet-dreams- preview

What ways and tricks/tips are there to think about when writing such a melody? how do I get the rhythm going like this?

I've tried swing and everything, yes.

I tend to get stuck after I've played the first bar, to continue with something that is the same but with abit of variation. I have no problems with the variation of the second bars END, I know what to do there and how to get the melody sound more interesting. What I do have problems with, is still containing the same melody as the first bar, and keep the rhythm/the motif, but have some variation in there, but still remain it to the main melody, so it sounds the same but it actually isn't. Small variations I guess.

Also, how do these proffesional guys within this genre do this? do they just click around in the pianoroll? or do they actually play it? it sounds too fast to be played in real-time.

The rhythm: do they play just a random rhythm/click it in into the piano roll, such as this:

http://www14.zippyshare.com/v/40365406/file.html

and the midi: http://www16.zippyshare.com/v/53255801/file.html

And where do they get the inspiration from? do they just click in stuff in the pianoroll and tries to feel the groove and then it evovles into a rhythmic melody?

I noticed that within this electronic music it's not a good idea to apply the classical rhythm things such as practice rhythms on the piano, it's simply too different from playing an instrument for some reason.

I'd HIGHLY appreciate the help here, as I'm really struggeling with this....

swing and everything. How do you think swing applies to this? Hint: not so much.

You're hoping a number of carts will pull the horse of a basic understanding of rhythm. in place of getting that by your own hands.
and you are making excuses for not gaining that basic understanding. There is nothing unique or novel about the rhythms in that. they are subdivisions of the pulse by twos. quarters-> eighths-> sixteenths... There is no lack of that in 'classical rhythms'. it's the same concepts. Only this kind of music is more mechanical/less subtle. Simpler application of.

even in that, the chances are good that what they can that you can't do owes to their experience with playing something on a keyboard, or something, sometime in their life. The chances are not so good they got that from canvassing the internet and reading in place of that.

since you haven't done that work, the decision you have made to 'notice' 'practicing rhythms [...] won't apply' isn't anything but creating an excuse not to do something you feel is too hard.

Could be they manufactured that in the piano roll by devices available, I can't know. But knowing how the devices work would only follow their basic understanding of rhythm which means they did some work on that, ie., practicing it.
Last edited by jancivil on Sat May 05, 2012 6:25 am; edited 2 times in total

Yeah, the beginning is what I call Indian tom-tom beat - 8th notes - dum,dum,dum,dum,dum,dum......with the chord changes occurring on each bar. Pretty basic stuff. Then at 1:11 it changes to straight 4's. Actually the whole track is pretty easy to figure out as the melody is not too complex and follows the chords exactly.

I can't imagine spending a year on this.

the melody in this particular track is not complex or difficult to play; i was able to figure it out on the piano on one pass and i don't have the best ears in the world. it's very idiomatic to the keyboard, something very easy to play in real time. sorry if this is super challenging to you at this point, but you might just have to practice more to get up to speed with playing to get more fluent at trying out ideas like these.

i'd say that it's highly likely that the performers just messed around playing different melodies on a midi keyboard over the drum beat until they found something they liked, or else they may have even had the melody in mind beforehand (e.g., they could sing it) and then played it in via a midi keyboard. that's much faster and actually quite a bit easier skill to master than mastering clicking in notes with the piano roll.

the biggest tip for developing good melodies that you like is to sit down with scads of mp3 files of tracks you like and try to copy what they're doing on your own instrument (e.g., keyboard). after you study lots of these melodies and can reproduce them on your own, you'll find coming up with strong ideas on your own is a LOT easier, as in, you can probably do one of these types of tracks in a day.

to get better at programming rhythms, it's helpful to get a basic drum kit book and try to reproduce the rhythms shown there. most of the rhythms in popular dance music are derived from rhythms that could be played on a drumkit, and knowing some fundamental principles about how drumkits work can help shortcut the learning process significantly over clicking around randomly hoping to find something that works.

I have no judgement on how long it takes. people have varying natural ability. but this sitting in front of the computer having never done any music is probably not the more efficient approach.

you don't have to get involved with 'classical music' but you do have to get some understanding. if you do not have an innate sense of rhythm, you will have to piggyback onto something. Reading rhythms would help in any case. This is going to go hand-in-hand with practicing an instrument with music in front of you.

Drum kit books, YES.
Last edited by jancivil on Sat May 05, 2012 6:47 am; edited 1 time in total

There are quite a number of tutorials on Youtube for getting a handle on time signatures from basic to complex. Here is one set of tutorials that might be of benefit:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9F399E036D962D14&feat ure=plcp

There are many others.

Play scales. All of them, both hands, all variations. And do that for a year or two. Whilst doing that, learn to play the piano.


After that it'll be easy.

in isolation, i doubt practicing scales in all keys or permutations will help one come up with better melodies because it doesn't train one's ear much. most melodies in dance music are diatonic based on either the ionian, dorian, or aeolian modes anyway, so just knowing those three scales will probably suffice if he's looking to do a pastiche of extant the dance genre.

for background: i regret most of the time i spent f**king around with different exotic scales that i could have spent ear training learning to play simple diatonic melodies in a heartbeat, so i may be coming at this from my own experience too much.

On the other hand I just wrote a trilogy of Arabic influenced ambient tracks and I didn't have to think about what scale I should use once. In fact I couldn't even tell you if you asked me because I really couldn't care less what they're called.

Scales, and learning to play an instrument is by far the best way to train your ears.

Imo of course!

tone/tone/semitone/tone etc in a row doesn't carry a whole lot of musical meaning in isolation.

when I was young I copped things off of records. thoroughly. melodic acumen is all about knowing from intervals. as I said in another thread, you find out how this interval and that interval in a tune makes you feel and you note that relationship.
whether it goes for simple diatonic or exotic, or what-not.


One issue here is rhythm and it might be the best idea to look at rhythm, written down, and practice that. On a tabletop, anything, but beat out some rhythm with your hands some kind of way.

There is a whole thing going on here with people following 'electronic' music styles where they are insulating themselves from other music deciding it ['electronic' music] is different somehow. The people that have real skills have done music that came before this stuff. It's a great rut you're digging for yourself insisting on this isolation by style.

A lot of the people that work quickly, in this style, eg., that track, did have piano lessons for a bit, You're kidding yourself if you think the piano roll/sequencer is a brand new way as if to obviate regular old skills.
Last edited by jancivil on Sat May 05, 2012 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total

as far as a system of knowing what's in a melody, I found that solfege [Do re mi...] was the key. singing the tune back by the 'names' of the notes, the syllable associated with the sound fixes the thing in your mind.

another thing is this all keys business. if you're going to become a professional, you'll need to...

BUT it could become a great distraction following that idea as if a dogma in the beginning. the intervals are the same key to key.

I'm no keyboardist and won't be. I get around well on it as far as composing because I know from intervals, per se. transposing is some knowledge of intervals with new note-names. So, solfege is key, transposition changes nothing essential about the basic understanding of the tune. The space between say Do and La is not changed in the next key. Knowing where the hand will find it will be a matter of experience/practice per that key, obviously. But I don't know about putting 'practice all keys' before getting an ear together. Your ear knows the interval or it doesn't.

Not everyone has to have the same overarching set of skills to get what they want out of music.

Cheers for the replies!

I think rhythm is a big thing that I'm missing right now.

Scales are no problem, I've been struggling with this kind of thing for the last year, almost everyday. Still keeping myself limited to the simpler types of scales though, not climbing up on pentatonic blues scales, mixolydic scales etc, as I really don't see the use of them right now. I want to start where I am now and go from there.

Although I could be better at ear training. I find it really hard to practice at this actually! I really want to put the effort in but just sitting down and playing and singing the note on the piano doesn't get stuck in my head for some reason, eventhough I've done it alot.

So.. about the rhythm training.

A drumkit book is a great idea! Got any recommendations of books I can buy? Thinking of buying one already now..

And if anyone of you happen to be swedish and know a good book for that in swedish, it would be even better.

Anyways, thanks for some good tips, I will definately look into this more!

I'm currently practicing the piano 1hour atleast each day, and spending a whole lot of more hours on producing, do I don't get out of shape of the both.

Regarding that melody I linked, I really find it weird that IF they played it live, they played those notes that quickly.. seems more like a piano roll edited melody to me, since it's so quick.. but then, ofcourse, it IS possible to do it on the piano if you got some skills for it..

Rhythm is my problem for sure. I don't know how they came up with that type of rhythm. I mean, there must be a ZILLION rhythms, right?

Learning simple rhythms feels like it's just gonna make the melodies more booring, but I might be wrong here..

This rhythm of the melody I linked seems abit more complex and got more variation.

that would be highly appreciated, so I can get started

that melody seemed kind of random but the basic structure (in blocks of 2 beats each, with instant changes between them in parantheses) is: rise (drop) rise (drop) rise () fall () cheesy-melodic-finish -::- -::- -::-

so the first half of the melody is some quick stuff that usually rises upward, but finishes with a fall, and the second half is a much simpler and slower thing providing conclusion and stability. another very prominent element in this melody is - as you'll notice - that, frequently, the last 16th of a beat is extended into the next beat. this gives a little syncopation and liveliness, as opposed to the strict rigidity of melody always conforming to beat. it can be done to a much greater and more dynamic extent than in this song. experiment! syncopation and juxtaposition of rhythm is important in dance music.

I can't be arsed to examine it more thoroughly now (as for what exact notes are present and how they relate to the chord sequence) but thinking in terms of blocks (subdivision) helps you build melodic structure in a more laborious fashion, which seems to be the preferable method in this case as melody obviously doesn't come naturally to you.

after a while you'll start noticing other meaningful things than just what direction the melody is going, such as what precise row of intervals is present and how it affects the mood and impact of the music.