So, I've slowly over time moved my studio from all ITB to about 50/50, but one thing I've mostly left out is my guitar. Odd, as I'm a guitarist. I've been pretty happy with Amplitube and S-Gear, but I've decided I'd like to have some actual glowing glass (besides my Blackstar HT-5 pedal) in my guitar's signal chain. No speaker needed as this is something that'll always be going direct into my audio interface.

I want to keep it fairly cheap. In and around the $500ish mark, but if something is really fantastic I can save. My current top choice is to get a Hughes and Kettner Tubemeister 18 and use it's recording out. I heard some pretty fantastic demos of it.

Other possibilities are a Rocktron VooDu Valve Oneline and the Engl E530. (I've got apps that'll let me use impulses for cabs, or even the cabs in Ampitube)

Am I missing anything else? A different amp and something like the Marshall Power Break?

dude seriously checkout Frenzel...the line out on many of them (my new one included) has a circuit that if you disconnect the speaker and use the line out (not the fx loop send) it is post power transformer meaning you actually get power tube distortion as well. But even better when the speaker is disconnected you wont blow the amp. I'm quoting this from the description on my amp but many are this way.



http://www.frenzeltubeamps.net/page21.php

I know I'm coming across as a fanboi and I dont intend to and I doubt I'll buy another Frenzel myself, but please dont let the idea of me being a fanboi or how you personally feel about me deter you from checking out the other amps Frenzel has to offer. My new Frenzel with this option sounds great with IRs and AT cabs because you have the power amp so to speak.

FWIW if you get something like the power brake dont get the Marshall, a feature you will appreciate having found on the Webers (which ar the least expensive as well) and other attenuators is a treble boost or similar. Attenuators are notorious for killing the headroom and the power brake imo leads the pack in this regard. If you dont want the treble boost you can turn it off but if you do not have it you might find you wish did

I know you're a fanboi, but not to the point where I think you'd love anything they made just for the sake of fanaticism. I think if I were to go that way I'd go with the Wild Cat 30 as I'm not a huge Fender guy. I can't find a single demo of it though. I think I might be looking for something a little more modern high gain with foot switch controllable channel switching at the very least.

well be that as it may do not be surprised if you do not come across a line out (including Frenzel) you like and question the value of the investment. I could be wrong but a sansamp and AT do a very good job and anything you put against them has to be better than any line outs I have tried (even Frenzel).

Dont get me wrong, you can do well with it but the first question that comes to mind might be why? You may find yourself thinking "I can do this with a few mouse clicks". Of course this is only me but I feel the line out/recording out is the last option.

If you go with an attenuator I hope you take my advice, Weber is not the only one who makes attenuators with a treble boost but even there I cannot recommend the line out on it. (though Eric gave me an interesting option I should try).

I'm not going to give you a bum steer on this, I'm only offering the truth of what I learned along the way since about 2007 when I got a Weber so I could use my boogie instead of a pod....after that the boogie sat not even plugged into the wall for years. After everything I went through the POD xt Live still sounded just as good. I could go back to the 90s and the Marshall Tube pre I have and still have not got the sound from it I wanted and the sansamp blew it away for me.

You also have to remember also what you put between the guitar and amp, because that is going to make a huge difference. Online demos are one thing but they can be off the mark for one's personal taste. If you like if you have away to split the signal record somethings as you want them to sound with AT and send me just the dry track and I'll run it through what you like of what I have and the settings you want with the line outs (the only amp without a line out is my boogie)

BTW you might like the Mesa/Boogie 5:25 or 5:50 Express amps, they have two channels (two complete channels) and the flexibility of being lower powered Class A single ended and Push/Pull AB (maybe B not 100% sure) at 25 or 50 watts.

I was never all happy with pure amp sim.

So I started with getting a Damange Control Womanizer to get some tubes to phatten things up, and still using cabinet sims. Quite an improvement.

But then I went one step further to a Koch Studiotone which has direct outs(with or without cabinet sim) as well internal load if not wanting to run with speakers. So you can crunch power amp as much as you want.

I still use the Womanizer due to the sweapable filter EQ is really cool.

I like Izotope Trash Boxmodels and their ability to create the miking with two mikes giving the feel of a miked cabinet in a room.

I also tested Waves GTR3 for cabinet sims. The option with stack of two and fiddling with delay on one gives also a sense of room miked guitar.

The search for guitartone is endless - but have come a little bit on the right track.

Ah yes, I had a demonizer once. Awesome line out, better than anything else I've heard. But it's basically one channel... and I somehow toasted it within a week when I put other tubes in. Shipping to the US was prohibitive because it's so heavy so I gave it back.

Out of the choice in the OP, absolutely get the Engl. It's a better preamp and that pays off, especially when you're using IRs in the backend.

H&K's Redbox is very good, certainly one of the better analog speaker sims, but compared to convolution based software all analog speaker sims appear rather lifeless IMO. There's only so much you can do with EQ. Besides, the Tubemeister is just one channel, and there's no 'pure' preamp out, just speaker compensated or speaker, meaning you can't try a better speaker sim with it.


If you can, look around for a used Mesa/Boogie Triaxis (if you're in the US) or Hughes & Kettner Access (if you're in Europe) or that Marshall JMP-1 preamp. They are midi controllable and let you save presets, which is very useful when you're working with a computer because you tend to do a lot more fiddling than ptherwise. The Access is from the era of H&K when they made multi-thousand-dollar luxury-item pro gear, not the more midrange stuff of these days. The Access significantly more capable than the Triaxis IMO on several levels, the JMP-1, well...

I have an Access I bought second hand for $300 and it lets me run the midi out on the Access into the computer to control Guitar Rig, meaning I can tie everything to one midi pedal.

After years of being not-quite-happy with my guitar sound, I've completely gone off cabinet/mic sims "in the box".

I can say "I had them all", because I nearly have. Steinberg Warp VST, ReValver when it was still from Alien Connections, Guitar Rig, Amplitube, Kuassa Creme, Softube Metal Amp Room, the LePous, and loads of other freeware sims (Nick Crow, TSE, ...)
But all of them sound only halfway there, some not even that.

There seem to be certain complex dynamic aspects to a cabinet/mic combination which just cant be captured by a single impulse, for example, and not by mixing 2 or even 10 of them together. And I guess it would make the CPU load of a plugin unbearable even on modern systems, if developers really created algorithms as thoroughly as they would need to be to get there.

I will try not go into it too deep...

An impulse response is created by running a frequency sweep through a power amp, cabinet, microphone and preamp. So all frequencies are covered, but as the sweep has only one consistent volume level, the created impulse is only representative for the volume level used to create it.

Think about it:

The sweep is usually played back quite loudly, so that the power amp tubes start driving and saturating with the sweep being played through it, so all the drive and saturation are captured for the sweep, which is in deed a good thing because it captures all sorts of harmonic and distortion effects for every possible frequency that could run through it.

But the flaw is: if the guitar signal you're running through the impulse is any louder or quieter than the sweep was, the IR is not representative and not fitting, because it would introduce too much or too little distortion, harmonics and saturation for your guitar signal.

Also, a loudspeaker with a loud signal is moving quite a bit, so it's pushing and pulling quite some air. As most IRs are created closely mic'd, this movement of air will have an effect on the microphone, just like if you're talking/singing into one.
The more air you blow into the capsule, the more rumble you get on the record.

In the end, you have an impulse that was created with a driven and saturating tube power amp, going through a loudspeaker that's moving quite a bit, moving a lot of air and blowing quite some rumble into the microphone.

Then, there's the way the microphone's capsule reacts to different "dynamic impulses" blown into it, as in different notes (=different RMS levels) and different attack/release curves (fingered, picked, poti swell).

Now suppose you're looking for an impulse to put on your clean and quiet ballad guitar solo full of volume poti swells, or maybe your funky/twangy pop "fattening" guitar.
You don't need all this drive, saturation and rumble that was captured in the impulse.

Then what?

The appropriate approach to correctly simulate a power amp/cabinet/mic/preamp combination would be to not only have one impulse covering all frequencies, but to have one impulse covering all frequencies for every possible volume level. Volume level of your guitar signal that's going through it, that is.
And that would mean quite an impressive arsenal of IRs, just for one combination.

Also, one would need an algorithm to inspect the incoming volume in both Peak and RMS to evaluate which IR is required to be applied. Of course, one could reduce the number of IRs and start morphing between them, that would reduce the number of Impulse samples and would probably work as well. But it would mean dynamically creating and applying FFT filters for each incoming sample, and I guess in addition to all the other factors ... that would result in quite a heavy CPU load.

So for that purpose I have recently tried to break away from "in the box" amp/cab/mic sims and I've built myself an isolation cabinet, that was quite a significant improvement to my guitar tone.

My iso cab is created of what I consider to be top-end products (thick Odyssey case [no cheap 7mm multiplex wood], thick and dense acoustic foam [6cm and 8cm, not the cheap pyramid rubbish], Sommer cables, Neutrik connectors, etc. and it works impressively well.
I spent my night playing guitar over my headphones at full chug, with not much more than a constant fart sound at room level coming out.

Overall cost to date: roughly 200€, microphones not included.

As of yet I've only tested it with my guitar head connected to the iso cab, playing directly through a mic into my interface. But recording that already sounds so much more realistic and vivid than any amp sim could ever deliver.

Why? Because it has it all: the correct amount of power amp saturation/distortion for my signal, the correct amount of speaker blow/rumble for my signal, the correct amount of mic hiss for my signal... it's dynamic, it's real, it's "alive".

Later today I will try something different:
Recording a dry DI track, then running it through an amp sim's preamp with cab/mic bypassed (thinking of Amplitube German Gain/Engl), and pumping this fuzzyfied signal through a power amp into my isolation cabinet in order to re-record it.

That would make the amp sim nothing more than a distortion pedal linked between guitar and power amp/speaker/mic, and I reckon I'll be able to get quite a sweet sound out of this signal chain.

If you care, I'll let y'all know how it works out.

I'm using a Blackstar HT-5 Duel Distortion in much the same way, though I feel it's good as a distortion pedal in front of a preamp (or modeler vst) it's "speaker emulated" outs blow chunks, as they say in the valley. Looks like the Womanizer is out of production and not a one on eBay. Studiotone looks cool... a lotta bread though for that little box. I'm trying to get this and a new computer done for $2K so I have some wiggle room but if I went full tilt on an amp like that it would put off the new computer for a while.

You are right about the endless search for guitar tone. I wonder why that is? Actually I'm generally really happy with my little Blackstar/Amplitube or S-gear set up for the most part. I just got a little windfall and I thought it would be nice to get a little hardware for when guitar is featured in the tune.

I would love it if you posted your iso cab in the DIY forum, I have a jet City right now but last year I drew up plans for my own iso cab.

Mine would be at least 2 1/4" inch thick walls of composite wood.

The top and bottom would be interlocking

The foam would not be relied upon for killing sound but for treating the sound to stop booming and such. Therefore my foam would likely be wedges or pyramid because of how that diffuses sound, it would be attached with velcro so I could add or remove foam as need to obtain the tone I wanted.

The top and bottom would be longer than needed so I could add adjustable baffles to further tune the cab

Yesterday was a very nice day and while I had intended to do this last fall I didn't, I need a place to cut the wood and my best friend not on has the tools (as well do I) but he has the garage to do it in. I was there yesterday and he asked me if I still wanted to cut up the wood there and I told him I did. He would have to meet me one day at home depot because he has a pick up truck and my design calls for 3 3/4" 4x8 sheets of composite wood. (I have it laid out how to cut up the sheets so I get all the pieces I need with little waste)

In December they finally had the jet city iso cabs available so I bought one, It's 1 1/2" thick and no foam but acoustic insulation...here's what I learned with it.

You can hear it in the room (love your definition of a fart that's accurate) but not even enough to be heard in another room or even enough to generate feedback. The cab itself acts like a room within a room so in any other room in the apartment or in the common hallway in the building it cannot be heard. (it's about 8' from the doors to my apartment) I had my wife go out in the hall and jump up and down for a few seconds to see if I picked up rumble and low frequency thumping from that...I did not. We have had major reconstruction here and even with the loudest banging it has not iterupted my playing using the iso cab.

A goose neck has some serious limitations and keeping the mic positioned at the exact same spot meant some alterations were needed or the weight of the mic would bring it closer and closer to the speaker and that was with a normal dynamic mic. (my iso cab probably would lie on it's side)

You need a balance when it comes to interior wall treatment, I have some foam (auralex) and I tried adding it to hear the difference and too much foam made it too dead.

More than one mic would be useful but I'm not sure I would be comfortable cranking an amp and putting a condenser in there, my Gauge Large Dia Condenser does have a pad on it which would help but still...

I still use an attenuator even with a two watt tube amp, again it's a delicate balance between diffusing, dampening and the overall tone. Because of the room inside the room concept killing the volume as to not disturb neighbors is not an issue but the tone inside the box is key.

It is far more critical keeping the outside noises out and it does this well but getting it off the floor really is important. If I am not playing, loud noises could get picked up but once you start playing it drowns out outside noises, I think my cab design would keep out more noises.

A grill cover similar to a pop filter over the speaker would be a good addition so you can use duct tape as many do miking a cab. I have found miking my 4x12 in my closet that using tape eliminates the "ice pick to the head" tone. I have thought about a Weber Beam Blocker but inside a limited space I think that would be overkill.

The difference between using the iso cab and using a line out is huge, the line out is too static and dynamically lacking at least for playing, re-amping is another story...combined with the iso cab tracks though you can do great job with IRs to fill in gaps...however at that point sims do equally as well in this fashion.

This is why I said ZC might not be happy with just a line out as he is coming from AT and the scuffman, it's about contrast and relativity. Face it AT sounds very, very good and there will not be that jaw dropping experience in fact it's very possible it would be a let down. It could just be me but with guitar I have not found recording outs on tube amps to be satisfying at all. It might be different with the method Eric mentioned using a Berhinger DI and perhaps with a decent speaker emulator like the torpedo speaker sim might work well.

Once you have the sound from the line out recorded and you are mixing I have great luck with the cabs in AT, VANDAL and IRs but when I'm trying to lay down tracks this way I found myself stopping to adjust things so often I just wasted time.

Again because it cannot be stated enough, caution must be used choosing attenuators because so many kill the headroom. Some form of or compensation is needed. I suppose if you dont have the compensation you might not notice it, but once you have a treble boost on an attenuator you'll know why it is so important.

Fwiw, my advice is to find a local guitar store and demo the Line 6 DT25 head and cab

I've never owned (or wanted to own) a Line 6 amp before this. Even the "Spider Valve" wasn't enough to impress me But THIS amp intrigued me and I can now confirm, something here is truly different. It's ALL valve (preamp AND power amp tubes) and it truly mimics the sounds of Fender, Vox, Marshall and Mesa Boogie. Ok, the Vox is questionable (it sounds OK but not exactly right) BUT, it nails the other 3 sounds dead on for me Surprisingly, it can be tailored to achieve a signature tone as well. Somehow, the so-called "HD modeling" is mostly insignificant if you just want a great sounding amp. Idk guys, I just love this amp

Check out the online video demos and go play one

R

Get a VHT Special6Ultra and a Shure SM-57 mic and your done . $329 for the amp and $99 for the mic !

You have to add a little cost for soundproofing your studio/apartment!!!

Yeah, the Engl does seem good, I do want to see if I can get my hands on one for a test.



The Tubemeister 18 is actually 2 channels. The 36 which is coming out soon is three and they're midi switchable. I wish I could find a MSRP on the 36. I think you can also use the effects send out as a pre-amp out.



The Boogie seems to expensive for my budget and not a single Access in eBay to be found, but that's an awesome price. The JMP-1 on the other hand does seem to fit a lot of my needs, though I couldn't find a single example of someone doing a direct recording and using a cab sim or impulse of some kind on it. I'll do more research on it, thanks for the tip.

I do very well miking my 4x12 in a closet and using an attenuator to keep my volume down but the jet City iso cab is also 329usd and works well so you dont need to soundproof an entire room. In the case of the OP I do know that outside noise is probably more of a factor and sure soundproofing would solve that if he had that kind of money but an iso cab does the same thing at a much lower cost.

Keep in mind that quite often when soundproofing a room you start by building a room within a room and an iso cab is just a very small room within a room. Of course an iso booth would be better but talk about a huge step up in price

I may one day buy an spl meter, I suppose I could rent one cheap for a day...but if I ever have my hands on one I will surely make a video with it showing how well an iso cab can kill the sound. (when I build a second one I will likely do this to test whether my design is more or less effective)

ZC, as long as you're talking pres put an ADA MP1 on your list to check out...I almost traded my POD xt Live for one at a local pawn shop but when I went back it was sold (I think it was more than 200 and less than 300, unfortunately memory does not improve with age )