**Please read topic before voting, thanks, otherwise the poll options don't make sense anyway**

Hi i am posting here because i know props are reading the host forum.. I am being quite serious about this, so i would appreciate intellectual discussion about it rather than cats, jokes, and trolling. Thanks in advance:)
All are welcome to vote, even non reason users of course, but please read the topic if you do vote. Don't take the opportunity to disagree with me just for the sake of it, please, as tempting as it may be

Around 37 days ago but who's counting I downloaded Reason 6 demo and initially thought bleh.. but for some reason persisted with it as i just wanted to know what all this talk for so many years was about.

48 hours later i was hooked but thought the plugin choice *may* leave me wanting for more.. Even though the idea of stability and a closed system appealed to me, i just wanted a *little bit more* to make it complete.

I then watched the entire musikmesse rack extension video, all 40 minutes, with great excitement.

I could not test any of these devices in the demo, but the names and plugins mentioned were generally ones i knew and trusted.

A week later i took the plunge and bought the program directly at propellerheads.se for $449 and became the proud owner of Reason 6.5.

Just 3 days later it arrived in my mailbox from sweden and i had my ignition key and dvd. I was happy.

Then the authorization dramas started, where for days i couldn't authorize the key but occasionally could not even run the program online. I consider, from internet research, propellerheads to be a reasonably sized "player" in the audio market. Not NI or Cakewalk and certainly not Avid, but, somewhere in the middle. So i felt comfy that things would get ironed out with authorizations. And they did.. seriously, it shouldn't have happened in the first place, but they did.

Then of course i started hitting limitations like the lack of PDC, and unfortunately it's the very best plugins that have latency (Neptune, Vocoder,Softube Trident, FET, Polar, Ozone 5 limiter, etc) .
Never mind i thought, people using pro tools worked around it for decades, and there is no reason why someone might not make a latency compensation rack extension device, just as mellowmuse did with ATA adjuster for Pro Tools.
Furthermore propellerheads have said they are actively listening and looking into the pdc thing (but seriously, an RE can't come soon enough.. the simplest way would be an RE that can put a negative sample value in on the track that has the latent plugins..it won't work on busses, but we don't HAVE to use these latent plugins on busses do we? ).

In fact, there are actually in entirety only a few things i do not like about the program.
1) Lack of PDC
2) Lack of automatic bussing and fader grouping with automatic solo ability
3) When tempo is changed, clips do not realign correctly length wise, RELATIVELY to the timeline.. like in every other host.. They just get chopped or extended and the clip must be manually resized to be the size of the audio data again. This is very annoying. (unless the tempo is already correct and stretch is enabled, but sometimes even so we do not want to stretch!)
4) It needs a better GUI curve adjustable EQ with analyzer
5) Lack of Rewire master.(i'd like to use melodyne and live as a rewire slave and use reason's efficient engine rather than live's as the master - plus i would like to sync NON REX loop preview to tempo this way)
6) lack of multiple midi clip editing on the same piano roll
7) Only -40db noise floor in gate which means bleed can leak, but this will be taken care of with a 3rd party inexpensive RE gate very soon

I think for all the love i have, those things can be overlooked. Cause that really is IT. i *adore* everything else, including all of the onboard processors (especially scream, RV7000, The Echo, Mclass comp and Stereo, Thor, NNXT, ARPG8 and Matrix), the midi editing with floating function window, the regroove mixer, the fantastic shortcuts, easy to use automation, REX manipulation, Blocks, and the BEST damn sidechaining of any host EVER... The general speed of use is also great...It's fast to get stuff done.. super fast..Plus i think the GUI is lovely. The stretch is also very very good except slowing down drums but that is taken care of by slicing instead. For melodic and vocal content the stretch is superb(yes i have tried all three algorithms). The program is also outstandingly efficient on my mac book pro. I finally got around to installing it on the imac, and i can't see myself overloading it any time soon.

At this point though i had been blind to the fact that 1) RE's were license that i would pay for and be stuck with forever, even if i moved on from reason one day, and 2) zero crossgrades from my vst versions were possible.
My excitement for Re's other than a couple of essentials, is not so great anymore, and I am forcing myself to live with the limitations of the included devices. Mind you that may seem as a good thing to some, to save $$$, but it is not good for the future of propellerheads, especially if others in general do the same thing! It also means developers will not continue to make RE's if they do not have strong sales, and so on and so on.

and it is these last 2 points that are the CRUX of this whole topic, because this is WHY reason is appearing so often in the marketplace since the launch of reason 6.5


I have been at KVR 11 years this september.. wow.. and i used to have to SEARCH and usually to no avail to find a reason in the marketplace. In 30 days simply since the launch of reason 6.5, there have been more than 10 copies sold here with a couple in their for sale now.

WOW.

I tell you what.. you might think 10 copies sold second hand is nothing.. but i have never seen a product been sold off so much, EVER.. since i have been here.. since this marketplace BEGAN.. as i was here for the birth also. Since day one. Actually, i was the first person to ever sell anything here, and then made a topic requesting a marketplace. I remember it clearly.

In other words.. no other product is being sold in the KVR marketplace used as much as Reason currently is. You can easily find it for $200 off retail on any given day. KVR members are a very relevant representation of propellerheads customer base on a worldwide scale, I would say.

Initially i thought i would return reason within the 30 day refund period, and save myself 200 bucks by buying it second hand here. You might think that's a shitty thing to do, but 200 bucks is a lot, that's a whole month of food for someone like me who eats on a budget. Plus, initially i thought i would make it up to them with rack extension purchases anyway..

You know what, i am glad i didn't do that, and I am glad i supported the company directly with a sale. But for my sale, there have been a potential 10 or more lost sales. People do not just say "I will spend $250 second hand on reason for the hell of it".. they are actually WANTING to buy reason to BEGIN with. You might say, yes, these customers will spend money on rack extensions anyway, so it is still a gain.. but the general opinion on propellerhead's current RE limitations is NOT positive, the forum talk worldwide is negative.. not the products themselves.. but the licensing conditions or as it is better known, the "EULA".

Propellerhead's claim that reason 6 has been the highest selling version of all time as far as NEW users is concerned was based on 6.0.. NOT 6.5.. and I would be interested to see the comparison of the numbers so far that have been buying reason 6 brand new AFTER 6.5 and RE's were released.

In a nutshell, I find it very, no, *extremely* alarming that reason is being sold off in the marketplace at such a rate. And i firmly believe it is primarily due to the rack extensions licensing agreement, and people deciding "i can't use this as my main all in one host after all", and the more common exposure of the PDC problems now that more devices with latency have been introduced (many people unaware previously that the vocoder and Neptune already had that problem)

I therefore ask that propellerheads start taking the complaints from users and potential users seriously.. and listen.. before their amazing product becomes a marketing failure.

Thanks for your attention.
A concerned customer (and fan)
-Theo
Last edited by TheoM on Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:53 pm; edited 4 times in total

ok well someone voted in exactly 20 seconds after i posted, which was an impossible time to read the post in.

so it seems people may take the opportunity to troll vote, so i ask the mods to close the topic, and i am going to repost it with only the option to agree.. it is going to be just as valid to get a number of people who are officially put off by propellerheads's marketing of RE's and lack of PDC.

Ok, 2 already.. this is a troll...

what a mistake i made...

sigh....

Mods please close.

WOW you guys are trolls. after my first line specifically asking you to read the post properly.

so sad

and expected i guess after the effort i made to write that which took around an hour.

just to have a shot at me. sigh.

Since you are keeping it, what do you like best about reason?
The answer I hear most frequently is stability, which is fair, but I've wondered if the limitations of Reason made it a more helpful songwriting tool.
Anyways, a fair observation.

Hi ouroboros i will not continue in this cause i timed the poll responses and voters are trolling.

Mind you my reasons for keeping it have been clearly articulated...

i have asked mods to delete this so i can repost, or remove the poll option if they can, where i will change the header again

hey ttoz i read your post before i voted, reason one of my friends i play with just sold reason for one of the reasons u posted in your post. he perty much felt what u described.
(i personally use studio one )he was a reason user for a long time and always recomend me to give it a longer try but i could not really get use to it.
so it was surprising when he told me he was going to sell reason
Last edited by cain on Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total

so you were the one yes. Your yes came after all the no's. Hence i know the votes were trolls, even for the best speed readers. Thanks for your honesty

Theo my brother....you need help. (No I didn't vote).........

I truly believe there was a lot of buzz around RE, a lot of people bought reason for being "in", but they were disapointed by the awfull workflow.
Just like i was years ago when i sold my copy.
But i think the fanbase is still here. And will be.
Only newcomers put their copy on marketplace.
So...

my2c

So I read your post and I feel where you're coming from. Reason has a lot right going for it but still needs help here and there. I like reason for the same reason I used to like acid, it's really fast for shaping ideas.


I think that some people are selling just because now's a good time to get out. There is some profit taking building on the back of the RE buzz. People are just saying, "I don't really use Reason anymore, I paid $1 to get the 6.0 upgrade and nothing for the 6.5 and all this buzz will let me sell quickly, and maybe for more than I'd get later when the buzz settles. Of course, there's also competition, but still, I suspect that some people are just seeing now as a good time to get out.

Others are probably underwhelmed with the rack extensions or irritated with the no resale policy enough to just say "enough is enough."

BTW: Change the title back and just ignore the poll. You'll get a conversation, and you'll get trolls. Polls attract trolls, you should know that.

ever since our disagreement in the instruments forum which i thought i'd sorted it seems you have an agenda against me.

I used to consider us internet friends.

If you don't think that that post had validity, then we honestly have nothing to ever talk about again, as we are obviously on a different intelligence level.

seriously.

that has nothing to do with disagreeing or agreeing with me. It was well written, constructed,

and good information for propellerheads.

as to the troll voters, who voted no before *I* even had a chance to vote YES LOL,

they are the ones that need help.

as do you teksonik for trolling in my thread when i said this was a serious discussion, first line, and i only wanted intelligent debate in here. Not:

"You need help"

i sincerely hope you get banned for that completely unprovoked and unnecessary attack.

Might do you some good. And you should know better than kicking below the belt when you know i am suffering with immense pain issues and have been on opiates and ssri's for a long time. I know i need help, thank you, and i am not your brother (phew).
............................................................ ............................................................ ............................

Thankyou to those who have responded normally.

I will change the heading back, as you are right, there will always be trolls.

I would have liked this to be data for propellerheads to assess.. so i guess there can only be so many who will troll vote, and the truth overall will come out and still be accurate figures (i hope).
Last edited by TheoM on Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:57 am; edited 2 times in total

I'll also just quickly post WHY i keep reason as my main DAW in case those who really genuinely find the length of the post overwhelming.. besides the negatives....:

i *adore* everything else, including all of the onboard processors (especially scream, RV7000, The Echo, Mclass comp and Stereo, Thor, NNXT, ARPG8 and Matrix), the midi editing with floating function window, the regroove mixer, the fantastic shortcuts, easy to use automation, REX manipulation, Blocks, and the BEST damn sidechaining of any host EVER... The general speed of use is also great...It's fast to get stuff done.. super fast..Plus i think the GUI is lovely. The stretch is also very very good except slowing down drums but that is taken care of by slicing instead. For melodic and vocal content the stretch is superb(yes i have tried all three algorithms). The program is also outstandingly efficient on my mac book pro. I finally got around to installing it on the imac, and i can't see myself overloading it any time soon.

i don't use Reason much these days, but i've made a lot of my better (partly unfinished) stuff in it, which i finish in Live 8. So i wouldn't sell it even in the long run. and i consider buying REtron.
we don't have to worry about the Props. they have to change their RE Shop rules a bit and get some more instruments in it ... that's it.

I can't see it being anything much deeper than this. The pay-what-you-want upgrade was a no-brainer for anyone thinking off offloading Reason at some point in the future, or at least keeping their options open. The addition of Record a generation or two ago probably brought some new users who now think they want to sell up.