Any help on speeding up load times?

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(Sorry guys, long post. Incidentally, I wrote this while waiting for a session with 4 CS2 patches and 4 CB2 patches to load, so bear that in mind.)

As the title suggests, I am really frustrated over the outrageous load times for CS2 and CB2. I really really like the sound of the libraries, but waiting 10 minutes for a session to load kind of kills my mood to use them, and makes me more apt to use another library, like EWQLSO--I like the sound of EWQSL SO less, but at least it loads quickly and is not hampered by mountains of unneeded scripts.

I started a thread about this a few months back, but it never really reached a resolution:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=361838

Now to be clear, my problem here is NOT in the time it takes to actually load the samples into memory--I know these are big banks, and Kontakt actually handles that pretty well.

The issue is that, when you begin loading any TVEC patch, it freezes for a number of minutes BEFORE it even begins loading samples, doing what I have to assume is the 18,000 lines of code in the "on init" method of the "TVEC Basic Settings" script. It literally just freezes a DAW in its tracks, and it unresponsive for quite a number of minutes.

I re-saved all of my patches as individual divisions to cut down the sample sizes, as well as getting rid of the more esoteric articulations that I don't need in EVERY instance. But it didn't help. The problem is in the scripts.

I do have a fair amount of experience with C-languages, but I don't know much at all about Kontakt scripting. Still, I have been trying to gut as much of the unnecessary scripts as possible to try to improve load times, but not very successfully yet, as the main script is 18,000 lines of code. :(

Kirk, is there any chance of ever releasing a light version of this? I mean no offense by this, but you have really great-sounding libraries hampered by an insane amount of rather pointless junk scripting. I mean, VibratoLive, EQLive, PatternMaker, hundreds of lines of code related to trills, etc. Isn't there a way we can just have the patches with basic playability without all the extra hocus pocus? I know some of the scripting is part of what makes the library sound so nice and is useful in some instances, but there is a lot of stuff in here that should be optional.

I think, sound-wise, your libraries could compete with the "big names," but holy crap, they have you beat 10-fold on loading times. Can we please discuss options and possibilities for fixing this?

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I'll look into this. BUT, it should not take several MINUTES to load the script, even on a slower computer system.

But again, I'll look into what could be boggin you down. In the meantime, can you tell me your DAW specs?

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KirkHunter wrote:I'll look into this. BUT, it should not take several MINUTES to load the script, even on a slower computer system.

But again, I'll look into what could be boggin you down. In the meantime, can you tell me your DAW specs?
Hi Kirk, thanks for the reply! Happy to do whatever I can to help. I agree that it seems outrageously long, but it is a problem that has plagued me consistently since the group buy in October, and unfortunately, it is specific to my KHS collection.

Anyway, DAW specs (self-built):
Win 7 Home Premium (see below for notes on hard drives)
ASRock Z77 Extreme4
i5 3570K
8GB DDR3 1600
Radeon HD 6870

OS is installed on a 128 GB SSD
All KHS libraries are on a dedicated internal 1TB WD Black HDD. This drive contains ONLY my sample libraries, and it is defragged at least weekly.
One more internal WD Black handles the actual DAW sessions and any recording/playing of actual audio files.

Primary DAW software is Cubase 6.5 (now Cubase 7, actually), but I have also tested this in Live 8, Live 9, and Studio One 2. All are the 64-bit versions, and obviously Kontakt is the 64-bit version.

I run a few other fairly heavy libraries with no major issues in load times--EWQLSO Gold, True Strike, and GPO 4 see fairly regular use.

And again, just to make sure it's clear--I am not talking strictly about the time it takes to load up the samples, because I know it takes a bit of time for Kontakt to get large libraries ready. The issue here is a complete freeze of Kontakt and the DAW before the samples even begin loading. Whether it is loading a saved session that has KHS stuff in it, or just adding a new instrument to an already-open session, the result is the same. (And I am not exaggerating at all when I say it can take 10+ minutes to re-open a session with 4 CS2 and 4 CB2 patches in it.)

And one final thought: as mentioned in the other thread, this only seems to happen the first time each patch is loaded after the PC has been powered up. After that, if I need to re-load a patch, they go more at less at the speed you would expect. I don't know much at all about Kontakt's inner-workings, but I would have to say that it sounds like there is a whole lot of something being cached upon first load that gets cleared when the system is powered down. But I could completely wrong on that. :)

Anyway, let me know what else I can do to help. Nothing would make me happier than to reach a resolution for this! Thanks again!

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sockofgold wrote:
KirkHunter wrote:I'll look into this. BUT, it should not take several MINUTES to load the script, even on a slower computer system.

But again, I'll look into what could be boggin you down. In the meantime, can you tell me your DAW specs?
Hi Kirk, thanks for the reply! Happy to do whatever I can to help. I agree that it seems outrageously long, but it is a problem that has plagued me consistently since the group buy in October, and unfortunately, it is specific to my KHS collection.

Anyway, DAW specs (self-built):
Win 7 Home Premium (see below for notes on hard drives)
ASRock Z77 Extreme4
i5 3570K
8GB DDR3 1600
Radeon HD 6870

OS is installed on a 128 GB SSD
All KHS libraries are on a dedicated internal 1TB WD Black HDD. This drive contains ONLY my sample libraries, and it is defragged at least weekly.
One more internal WD Black handles the actual DAW sessions and any recording/playing of actual audio files.

Primary DAW software is Cubase 6.5 (now Cubase 7, actually), but I have also tested this in Live 8, Live 9, and Studio One 2. All are the 64-bit versions, and obviously Kontakt is the 64-bit version.

I run a few other fairly heavy libraries with no major issues in load times--EWQLSO Gold, True Strike, and GPO 4 see fairly regular use.

And again, just to make sure it's clear--I am not talking strictly about the time it takes to load up the samples, because I know it takes a bit of time for Kontakt to get large libraries ready. The issue here is a complete freeze of Kontakt and the DAW before the samples even begin loading. Whether it is loading a saved session that has KHS stuff in it, or just adding a new instrument to an already-open session, the result is the same. (And I am not exaggerating at all when I say it can take 10+ minutes to re-open a session with 4 CS2 and 4 CB2 patches in it.)

And one final thought: as mentioned in the other thread, this only seems to happen the first time each patch is loaded after the PC has been powered up. After that, if I need to re-load a patch, they go more at less at the speed you would expect. I don't know much at all about Kontakt's inner-workings, but I would have to say that it sounds like there is a whole lot of something being cached upon first load that gets cleared when the system is powered down. But I could completely wrong on that. :)

Anyway, let me know what else I can do to help. Nothing would make me happier than to reach a resolution for this! Thanks again!
No doubt at all that Kontakt caches things. Have you looked into Kontakt's memory server? Although, that does not really mean anything where this may be concerned. Again.. I'll look into it.

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Hey Kirk, I'm just going to bump this to see if you have had any luck or ideas finding a resolution to this. I have noticed a couple other people in your sub-forum have mentioned load times as well. Your libraries are awesome, but there is definitely something amiss with the load times. :(

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=381839

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=381174

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sockofgold wrote:Hey Kirk, I'm just going to bump this to see if you have had any luck or ideas finding a resolution to this. I have noticed a couple other people in your sub-forum have mentioned load times as well. Your libraries are awesome, but there is definitely something amiss with the load times. :(

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=381839

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=381174
I've tested, and all seems ok here. You mention that you're running your libraries completely on an external drive. Does that mean you're running Kontakt that way too. I've heard that it's best to run your apps from the boot drive, and STREAM your SAMPLES from an external. In any case, there is a link below that when unzipped gives you 2 instruments. (You have to have Kontakt 5 to open them after unzipping.) They do not have any samples. If they indeed load a lot faster, then there is something going on with Kontakt. OR....the KH libraries are just monsters where samples are concerned. I notice that the libraries you compare to are not really that big where sample content is concerned. Anyway, let me know what happens when loading the test files at this link:


http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/esa_ns.zip

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Cool, I will test these out this afternoon (US west coast) and report back.

And to answer your question, Kontakt is indeed installed and run from the OS/boot drive (the SSD), and the samples themselves are all store on the secondary drive (not technically "external," but rather just a second internal HDD connected directly to the motherboard via SATA2).

Anyway, I will test this as soon as I can and let you know. (I will test on both Win and Mac, because I feel like the issues have only occurred on my Windows system, but I will let you know.)

Thanks again!

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Hi Kirk,

So it does seem like these load pretty well. Patch #1 delays for a few seconds before loading, but patch #2 loads more or less instantly.

So it does look like it might be the samples that are the issue, but it's still very weird, since it freezes for a period of time before it begins loading them.

Could this be a Windows issue? Maybe it's a bug in the Windows version of Kontakt that has never been uncovered before? (I don't know, just throwing ideas out.) Anyway, thanks for looking into this! :)

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sog - do you want to put up some example load times against a couple of specific instruments as examples, I'll happily try to replicate and report back?

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sockofgold wrote:Hi Kirk,

So it does seem like these load pretty well. Patch #1 delays for a few seconds before loading, but patch #2 loads more or less instantly.

So it does look like it might be the samples that are the issue, but it's still very weird, since it freezes for a period of time before it begins loading them.

Could this be a Windows issue? Maybe it's a bug in the Windows version of Kontakt that has never been uncovered before? (I don't know, just throwing ideas out.) Anyway, thanks for looking into this! :)
Well, I'm glad that it's not the programming that seems to be the culprit. At least the sample issue can be address more universally. So tell me what the sample load amount is for the other "large" libraries with which you are comparing Concert Strings 2. Maybe that's the issue?

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KirkHunter wrote: Well, I'm glad that it's not the programming that seems to be the culprit. At least the sample issue can be address more universally. So tell me what the sample load amount is for the other "large" libraries with which you are comparing Concert Strings 2. Maybe that's the issue?
Yeah, I will run some tests and get some specific numbers for you (and for don1thedon as well). It may have to be a weekend project, so it might take a couple days, but I will update once I have more info.

Thanks again!

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sockofgold wrote:All KHS libraries are on a dedicated internal 1TB WD Black HDD. This drive contains ONLY my sample libraries, and it is defragged at least weekly.
You don't really need to defrag the sample drive that often at all. Unless you're really installing and deleting a lot of libraries from/to it in that time period? I guess you are not, so just defrag it once and leave it be. Just reading from the drive doesn't fragment it.



As for your issue - are you running an antivirus?

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Another thing:

Once you load, then try to update Kontakt's database. Then next time you load, it should be faster.

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Ok, so I threw together a quick screencast that should hopefully satisfy the info both of you guys requested.

Basically, it shows me loading a CS2/ESA patch followed by an Albion patch of comparable size. The big thing to note here is that the ESA patch completely freezes Kontakt for 1 minute, 17 seconds BEFORE the samples begin loading. (And yes, I left the whole thing in the video, so it's over a minute of starting at a frozen Kontakt--I put a caption on the screen so you know, but feel free to skip ahead. I pulled up the system clock so you could see the time.)

The actual "real" loading times are very similar, but TVEC/ESA patches just have this "pre-load" freeze for me. And it's not just CS2--it is also Concert Brass 2 (well, and Diamond as well), and every single patch has its own "freeze time." So, for instance if I fire up a Cubase session with 5 CS2 patches and 4 CB2 patches, this pause is 9 times longer than what you see here--hence why I said earlier it can take over 10 minutes to re-load a session.

So, don1thedon, all-in-all, it takes 1:34 to load the default ESA patch for the Cellos/Whole section. I can do some more if you need me to, but they're all pretty similar to this.

Anyway, here is the video. Hopefully this helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtOI0UvC ... e=youtu.be

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Interesting. So...the Albion patch you're comparing to has roughly the same size where sample content is concerned?

Ok, so here are 2 more test files that load all the samples...
1 - has only the init portion of page 1's programming. Don't try to play any notes once loaded. It's a mess.
2 - has NO programming at all, but still loads all the samples. Don't try to play anything once loaded. Again, a real mess.

http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/esa_te ... amming.zip

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