Simplifying Music?

[ghostwhistler]

Dunno if this is the right forum.

As a composer I always thought I had decent ideas. I always thought my tastes in music informed at least the pretence of some original content. But as I look back over what i've written since getting into music production (somewhat) seriously I find that I tend to overcook the songs.

Part of this is a love of prog rock which is historically excessive, and that's why I love it. But I also love synthwave and early eighties electronica (mainly Exit by Tangerine Dream and that general period, with Johannes Schmoelling). Also Kraftwerk who are the epitome of elegant simplicity. Yet I just cannot emulate that degree of simplicity, it makes me think my music is lacking.

I've been writing stuff with, on average, ten different parts. These are not specifically layered textures to build a single sound, they are independent parts. I do this because I think the music is otherwise lacking. But then I listen to stuff I like that's way simpler and I wonder why I can't do that.

Is this true for anyone else? I mean, Tour De France by Kraftwerk is the simplest thing, yet so evocative and original. Oxygene 4 (or is it 5?), Kiew Mission by TDream (probably not the best example as there is quite a lot happening texturally). Even the late great Vangelis, hugely evocative and very in the moment, not massively laden down with unnecessary parts. I could go on.

Any tips for writing or arranging more simply without compromising the work? Thanks.

RIP Vangelis

[enroe]

Dunno if this is the right forum.

Maybe the theory-forum would be the right place.

As a composer I always thought I had decent ideas. I always thought my tastes in music informed at least the pretence of some original content. But as I look back over what i've written since getting into music production (somewhat) seriously I find that I tend to overcook the songs.

... Even the late great Vangelis, hugely evocative and very in the moment, not massively laden down with unnecessary parts. I could go on.

Yes - this is a typical phenomenon. I know that from myself, but
I think it's also typical for beginners or composers who stumble
into composing without really dealing with it.

It usually works like this: You record one track after the other -
parallel - and when you listen to it later you realize that it's all too
much. But if you then mute tracks, then it sounds too banal, too
meaningless. What to do?

If you listen to good music, that is, to your role models, regardless of
whether it's electronic or rock, you'll quickly notice that the songs are
relatively simple and only have a few tracks. But what sets them apart
is a melody, a riff or a vocal phrase!

So I think composing means focusing on a little melody line, riff or
vocal phrase. You really have to focus! And then you build the song
around this motif in such a way that this phrase is optimally
expressed.

If you want to get it wrong, you fire up the sequencer (nowadays the
DAW) and spend hours trying out loops, sounds or drums. You can
keep it up all night - but without getting any further in any song
composition.

If you want to do it right, you first hum melodies, write them down
with a piece of paper and pencil - and then just play this one melody.
Focusing on the most important thing - the melody - is crucial!

[Googly Smythe]

My role models include Richard Strauss, Richard Wagner and Jean Sibelius, as well as the likes of Lulu, the Moody Blues, King Crimson, Yes and Esther Lamandier.
There seems to be a certain reverse snobbery where complicated/layered music is concerned. There is room for all. Do what you want and bugger everyone else, it's not their music. It's yours.

[vurt]

If you want to do it right, you first hum melodies, write them down
with a piece of paper and pencil - and then just play this one melody.
Focusing on the most important thing - the melody - is crucial!

[ghostwhistler]

If you listen to good music, that is, to your role models, regardless of
whether it's electronic or rock, you'll quickly notice that the songs are
relatively simple and only have a few tracks. But what sets them apart
is a melody, a riff or a vocal phrase!

So I think composing means focusing on a little melody line, riff or
vocal phrase. You really have to focus! And then you build the song
around this motif in such a way that this phrase is optimally
expressed.

If you want to get it wrong, you fire up the sequencer (nowadays the
DAW) and spend hours trying out loops, sounds or drums. You can
keep it up all night - but without getting any further in any song
composition.

If you want to do it right, you first hum melodies, write them down
with a piece of paper and pencil - and then just play this one melody.
Focusing on the most important thing - the melody - is crucial!

Which is exactly why the Escape From New York theme (praise the lord, John Carpenter) works so well. Great melody, underpinned by a neat harmony.

BTW, if anyone knows the chords under the main melody and that cool chromatic phrase...lemme know!

[Hink]

if you like I can move this to music theory but leave a shadow here so it's still seen here too, just redirected to MT

[ghostwhistler]

if you like I can move this to music theory but leave a shadow here so it's still seen here too, just redirected to MT

Thanks!

[donkey tugger]

What I always try to do is have a fairly limited number of chord progressions etc, but a lot of variations on these - e.g. Chord substitution, up an octave, play staccato, dropping things in and out, spot effects...etc, all the little songwriting tricks/fairy dust. That way there's a lot of things to catch the ear without losing the thread, so to speak.

[ghostwhistler]

What I always try to do is have a fairly limited number of chord progressions etc, but a lot of variations on these - e.g. Chord substitution, up an octave, play staccato, dropping things in and out, spot effects...etc, all the little songwriting tricks/fairy dust. That way there's a lot of things to catch the ear without losing the thread, so to speak.

That sounds the right approach: composing out a piece of music. I say right, there are no rules of course.

But that's what classical folks do. IME

[donkey tugger]

What I always try to do is have a fairly limited number of chord progressions etc, but a lot of variations on these - e.g. Chord substitution, up an octave, play staccato, dropping things in and out, spot effects...etc, all the little songwriting tricks/fairy dust. That way there's a lot of things to catch the ear without losing the thread, so to speak.

That sounds the right approach: composing out a piece of music. I say right, there are no rules of course.

But that's what classical folks do. IME

...and they (and I'm sure there's a word for it... ) will use the same motifs in different contexts; or as I like to call it, playing a bit from the verse over the chorus, or vice versa.

[trewq]

First thing i thought of on seeing the title:

For a few complex and unrelated midi samples, use one as a template, use various midi tools to select certain elements in order to modify parts of another sample making them less unrelated. Stamping out some of the complexity can get interesting.

Not something I'd recommend in theory tho.

[enroe]

There seems to be a certain reverse snobbery where complicated/layered music is concerned.

No way!

There is room for all. Do what you want and bugger everyone else, it's not their music. It's yours.

You are undoubtedly right about that. But remember - the question was:

But then I listen to stuff I like that's way simpler and I wonder why I can't do that.

T h a t is the key question here!

Since I often feel the same way myself - and since I hear many musicians who
complain about "too complex" music and not enough distinctive music, I have
tried to analyze the reasons for this.

Of course, it's always just about your "own music" - and whether
you really like your own music.

Exactly at this point my conclusion is that the question arises as to
whether you as a musician dabble in relatively unimportant things for
a long time (drum loops, sounds, synthy programming, DAW
colours, etc.), OR whether you really focus on composing songs.
And that means dedicating yourself to the melody and its
elaboration. Maybe even with pen and paper - first of all maybe
without a DAW.

[Aloysius]

Quill and parchment paper.

[enroe]

Quill and parchment paper.

Sometimes you can also write notes on the palm of your hand ...

[Aloysius]

with a dagger.