KVR Audio

Architeuthis · Post by **Architeuthis** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:00 pm

I've measured the pitch Unstable "Speed" (8.040) + "Amount" (0.001) parameters' affect on the pitch of one oscillator from Helix:

(image from ReaTune)

I cannot find a VST plugin that can create that kind of random oscillation with the use of noise and filters. I've tried using pink noise and a filter. When connecting it to the pitch modulation of an oscillator, it doesn't allow the pitch to drift off center like in the image.

Any advice? My goal is to create a supersaw using my analog synthesizer and overdubbing it 16 times.

Cyforce · Post by **Cyforce** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:27 pm

Noise = Supersaw?

For supersaw-emu's you need primay many saws, noise only if needed in the background.

Architeuthis · Post by **Architeuthis** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:42 pm

Cyforce wrote:Noise = Supersaw?

How do I explain this? I'm talking about using nosie to cause the oscillator to drift in pitch *instead of* simply detuning the oscillator. And yes, you'd need another noise source for every oscillator. I'm not talking about using noise as an audio sorce. The graph above is a measure of pitch. The middle line represents Middle C. Notice how the pitch drifts randomly up and down.

MaliceX · Post by **MaliceX** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:55 pm

I can't remember if Jonas said it was something to do with phase drifting as well, with the Unstable settings. It is an interesting effect he's implemented, as you say it seems to be rather distinctive when compared to white or other kinds of randomly generated noise.

Comparing with Ultra Analog's "Error" setting, Helix's is much more dramatic. xD

Architeuthis · Post by **Architeuthis** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:08 pm

Hey MaliceX, I know this kind of noise "profile" is possible without any magical voodoo. If anything, the graph looks like filtered noise plus a random DC offset. The problem is getting that random DC offset.

I could use my analog slew (MOTM-820) before going into the FM input. That would get the random DC offset, but not the extra noisy spikes on top. However, maybe those aren't needed to create a nice dispersion of oscillators. I'll try this.

Chris Roberson · Post by **Chris Roberson** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:14 pm

All of that seems a bit overkill to be honest with you. Definately easy to do if you build the instrument yourself in something like SE, but if you can't build it custom or have someone build it custom for you it's pretty much not gonna be too easy.

Architeuthis · Post by **Architeuthis** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:19 pm

The analog slew limiter worked like a charm! It produced a nearly-identicaly "noise profile." Here's the result of my expiriment:

http://www.elanhickler.com/misc/helix_vs_analog.wav

First you hear the helix supersaw, then my analog imitation. Wow, nearly identical!

Then again, I'd like a solution that doesn't require sacrificing my only slew limiter.

xybre · Post by **xybre** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:16 pm

Hey! I was just thinking up ways of doing this for the hell of it. I had the very same idea you did initially, but I'm afraid you lost me with your conclusion.

Architeuthis · Post by **Architeuthis** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:05 am

Alright, I was finally able to get a good nosie profile using KarmaFX synth noise and a filter. I can use that instead of an analog slew limiter.

Xybre, what?

Cyforce · Post by **Cyforce** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:38 am

Architeuthis wrote:
Cyforce wrote:Noise = Supersaw?
How do I explain this? I'm talking about using nosie to cause the oscillator to drift in pitch *instead of* simply detuning the oscillator. And yes, you'd need another noise source for every oscillator. I'm not talking about using noise as an audio sorce. The graph above is a measure of pitch. The middle line represents Middle C. Notice how the pitch drifts randomly up and down.

Why don't taking a normal synth? V-Station?
3x Saws(8+8+16) - detuning, osc-balance, unisio, unisio detune, vco-drift, eq, filter - finish...

The way to use a noise-generator will not really work, because for a real emu you will need 9 saws which are analog-modelled and has the right detuning to each other. And noise to build an analog saw? mhm ...

i don't understand why you wanna build this in some noise-generators. It would be the same, like building a neuron sound with a 1osc-synth ^^

justin3am · Post by **justin3am** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:03 am

I believe he is multi-tracking the saw tooth output of analog oscillators (hardware) to emulate a digital "super-saw" by chaotically (not randomly) modulating the fine tune of the oscillators on each pass. With an analog oscillator you can't really modulate the phase and pitch the way a roland VA would effectively so he has to find a different way to get a similar result.

By slewing (also called lag or "smoothing") a noise signal you get a more gradual/slowed random modulation which can then be used to modulate the pitch of an oscillator. In the analog realm you can just low pass filter a noise source below audible range to get this kind of slow random voltage but using this method, you lose any cohesive relationship when you start multi-tracking because the modulation is truly random. A better approach would be to record a period of slow random voltage which can be used to modulate the pitch of the oscillator on each pass. The phase of this CV sample can then be offset on each pass to diffuse the obvious modulation characteristics. Something like that.

Why one would do this is completely beyond me but for those confused about what is going on, that seems to be his motivation for the post.

deastman · Post by **deastman** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:49 am

To my eye, the waveform posted at top looks sort of like a sine wave, DC offset by a slower moving wave, with noise mixed in on top.

adamszabo · Post by **adamszabo** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:48 am

what measuring software is that? Are you sure its not a dc offset as the above me poster said?

Architeuthis · Post by **Architeuthis** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:45 pm

Here's my results: http://www.elanhickler.com/misc/supersaw.mp3
-Using an analog synthesizer overdubbed 16x for each patch using filtered white noise to create oscilator drift necessary for a good supersaw sound. You will hear the single oscillator and the 15 other oscillators fade in. In most cases, I randomly offset the overdubs 4ms to randomize phase. Percussion is from MicroTonic.

The very last patch is from Audjoo Helix for comparison purposes.

adamtrance wrote:what measuring software is that? Are you sure its not a dc offset as the above me poster said?

That's a graph from COCKOS ReaTune

MWSOS · Post by **MWSOS** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:03 pm

Very interesting thread Architeuthis, and an effective demo to demonstrate your results!

If anyone else wants to try this in Kontakt, there's a useful tool for it in Soniccouture's Scriptorium, which I reviewed in SOS January 2009:

www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan09/articles/scriptorium.htm

The 'Analogue Oscillators' script is probably the best one to try, as it's designed for this very purpose. However, its 'Controller Wobbler' script also generates random controller streams incorporating Brownian or Gaussian randomicity. I suspect the gentler wandering of the Brownian option would be better for this application.

Here's the product page if anyone wants to find out more:

http://www.soniccouture.com/en/products/p31-scriptorium

Martin

Need noise generator for creating analog supersaw.