EDIT: dynamics part seems to have been solved

particularly raving on about how it is "zero latency,"

i have found it does not report it's latency to the host when OS is engaged..so there IS latency with OS engaged.

This is unacceptable for an expensive plugin and i knew i had phasing going on somewhere and i didn't even think to check that it was your plug in the whole time.

At least add a render option for OS then but even so it MUST report the latency to the host or everything will be out of phase!

This is a BUG, no other way to look at it, every single host that supports pdc properly, including, cubase, sonar, s1, logic, pro tools

can deal with variable latency plugins.

Please fix this, and add the promised side chain support.

I really do NOT want to sell this, because there are many things i love about it.

Thanks.

Not to start two topics, i am also disappointed with MB-7 as i purchased this particularly to do stereo narrowing on my bass, as you know, and there is nothing i can do, no matter how i change the filters, that just inserting the plugin on my master bus, alters my ENTIRE mix very noticeably

using something like the 3 band stereo tools of sonalksis, or melda, or ozone, does not change the sound of the audio whatsoever until you change the stereo width.

very very disappointed for the amount of money i spent, as i never demoed this i just bought it excited at the special but i had asked you if it can do per band stereo narrowing.

If you can tell me a way to insert the MB7 on my mix without it changing it ,and i am guessing it is due to the steep filters, maybe a lack of oversampling or look ahead? then please tell me
Last edited by TheoM on Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:28 am; edited 2 times in total

Hi ttoz,

About Blue Cat's Dynamics: oversampling actually does not introduce any latency, but may introduce changes in the phase of the signal (due to the oversampling/filtering process). I don't know what you are trying to do, but if it's for parallel compression, that's the reason why you have the dry/wet knob. Mixing dry and wet signals outside of a plug-in that may apply non linear phase filtering is not a good idea and might indeed produce phasing issues.

And sorry for the external side chain feature: it has indeed been postponed a couple of times because most customers are happy with the MIDI side chain feature (it has been greatly improved now that you can adjust the rate for MIDI messages) and we had tons of other priorities. But it's still in our todo list.

About the MB-7 Mixer: if you insert the plug-in with its default settings, there should not be any change to the sound. Of course, with crossover filters set to maximum slope and heavy gain changes, there could be some phase effects, but that's expected and explained in the documentation. So if you hear changes with the controls set to neutral positions, there could be a bug that has never been noticed before.

To help us reproduce: is the plug-in the last in the chain? Are you applying additional processing afterwards? Also, have you tried to compare the signal before and after using a spectrum analyzer? What kind of "changes" do you hear and/or see? Have you tried A/B comparisons with the bypass button? Does it still happen with whatever number of bands you may use (1 to 7)?

Thanks for your help.

plug in last on chain simply inserted and changes entire mix. no offence but am not a newb i know which plug in is doing it.

Hitting bypass solves everything.

i hear resonance and increased distortion

Hi regarding then compressor i had a couple of identical tracks on different audio tracks, one with the compressor so i guess that was the problem.

Ok i never heard this before.

when for example the glue uses OS it just simply adds 2ms latency, and everything is in phase.

that said, it's work aroundable and i love the plug in even more now cause it's OS without latency!
Last edited by TheoM on Fri May 18, 2012 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

About Blue Cat's Dynamics: for oversampling you have basically two choices for filtering. Either use linear phase filters and add latency or use minimum phase filters and have no latency. We just chose the solution without latency.

About Blue Cat's MB-7 Mixer: We don't think you are a newb. Just trying to understand the potential interactions here. Do you hear the same artefacts whatever the number of bands? (even just 1?). Just for sanity check, do you have the plug-in on the master? Wouldn't you be mixing the signal with itself? (there could be the same issue as with the Dynamics plug-in).

plug in on master only...

does not happen with one band.

it is the crossovers i am sure.

Too much bleed through at 24 db

but i want to know how other multiband stereo imagers get around it...

to really focus on the lows i need 48db crossovers and the resonance is very audible

even with just two bands (one low, one everything else)

Is it possible for you to send us a preset and maybe a short excerpt of the dry signal?

just confirm the email you want me to to use and sure, i will bounce the song to single stereo file, with no MB-7 on master
then insert just a blue cat MB-7

and you can see

Great! You can send the data to our support email address (support [at] bluecataudio [dot] com).

I am so sorry for my tardiness, i will get to this soon, i just have been doing further testing before i do..

FWIW it's the steeper filters that do it.. but i don't think it's actually possible to avoid that..

i think u r right when inserted it may not change the sound, i might have clicked 96db on one of the filters by accident, it's the only thing i can think of.

I will do further testing to confirm, as it might be a case closed, if i was wrong and as i said nothing can be done about steeper filters, they will by their very nature cause resonance.

cheers.

Theo

This would indeed make sense if this is what happened. As mentioned in the documentation, the issue with very steep filters is the heavy and steep phase shift that occurs at the cutoff frequency. Human ears can hear it pretty well.

oh well the situation is sadly not over...

even with just one ear, i confirmed my findings today with the toneboosters loudness meter changing slightly when the blue cat is inserted at default settings.

i hear it instantly, it's like a "thinning" of the sound, like it loses a bit of punch.

i am simply testing with a drum loop and guitar loop, 2 tracks bussed into the master, insert mb7 on master.

just with the default 3 band and 24/db filters..

you should be able to test this and hear it for yourself, i can't understand how you can't, when i have complete one sided deafness, and i can hear it instantly.. I also bilnd tested myself and i got 100% success rate.. i closed my eyes and clicked on the bypass/unbypass button so many times i lose count then guess what state the plug in is in, whether on or bypassed, and i got it 4 times in a row

I can't be imagining this

Hi ttoz,

We definitely do not think that you are imagining this!

We have made additional tests here, including formal spectral measurements and unfortunately we could not reproduce the issue. BUT maybe we are not doing the exact same thing, and also maybe there is a bug specific to the host/format that you are using.

So in order to find out, can you please confirm the following:
- you have a stereo loop on one track.
- you add the "Blue Cat's MB-7 Mixer (Stereo)" plug-in to the master bus, alone, with default settings (flat response, 24 dB/Octave filters).
- all dry/wet or mix parameters are set to 100% in the host application (no "parallel processing")
- no other bus is added to the master after the plug-in.

Also, can you tell us your host application and the format of the plug-in that you are using? If you have a sample project, that would also be awesome to help us find out.

We are sorry for bothering you with these details and questions, but what you describe really sounds like a phase problem where the initial signal is somehow mixed with the output of the plug-in (this would produce a loudness drop as well as holes in the spectrum, just like a comb filter). There could be many causes for that (including a bug on our side, or mono/stereo conversions implicitly made by the host etc.), so we need to investigate further to understand where it comes from.

Thank you for your patience and your help.

that's the exact procedure.

logic 9.1.7

audiounit

32 bit and 64 bit

no it's not a phase issue etc.. i am talking about a TINY, SUBTLE change here.. enough that my pear can pick it..

if i were to mix INTO the plug in to begin with, ie it sits on the master buss at the start of a project.. well, thats solves the problem completely.

That said, will be sending you an email about something

Well guys, i am bumping this.. this MB-7 is USELESS to be used on a complete mix.
I have done so many tests now that i am back on logic

and i can guarantee you your plug in is 500% broken.

All i want to do is use 2 bands and mono the bass and also audition the mix in mono to check mono compatibility, but it changes the sound so much there is no point.

Now i can prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

What my ONE ear could pick up that other's pair of two couldn't, is now proven statistically.

Put a simple drum loop. Nothing more nothing less.

an empty project, with ONE drum loop.

Play it back um, looping.

Let's say logic's master output and the loops' track meters are both 100% equal as it should be, with the peak value being around -0.4 db.

Simply insert MB-7 on the master, nothing more, nothing less.

the metering on the Track with loop on it of course unaffected, but logic's master output now CLIPS to almost 3 db over. yep, +2.7 db.

How's that for "not altering the sound" as you claim.

the only way to avoid this is to take the plug in to one band only, which can still be useful for a zero latency monitoring solution to check mono compatibility.

but beyond theta, the plug in has no use, if it is destroying the dynamics of the sound to such a huge degree.

I am sorry but i have been fighting with this for almost a year, and you wanted a transfer fee for me to sell the plugin, so i kept it as i don't do transfer fees, and i think it's reasonable for me wanting what i paid for to work as intended.

Even in two band mode the MB-7 takes the meter to +2db. So i am losing just by having MB-7 inserted, an average of 3db dynamics.

Unacceptable in any scenario.

Why can every other tool i have ever tried that splits a frequency into bands, be completely neutral before any adjustments are made? why not yours?

I can insert a melda stereo tool (for example), and the sound will null with the original ie is completely unchanged until i do some processing changes, and that tool splits it into 4 bands.

I have tried every filter steepness combination and MB-7 just alters the sound far too much.

I can't understand how magazine reviews miss such crucial stuff which is why i no longer bother to read any reviews (including SOS)


I have spent far too much time on this and i reported it long enough ago.

you guys do not listen to input, or suggestions, or bug reports. Ever. from the very first thing i reported when i first became a customer. Years go by, and the products don't change or get fixed.

It's starting to get REALLY annoying.

Like the external sidechain on the compressor (it's coming it's coming)

yeah, right. I asked for that before purchase and you told me was on the to do list, over a year ago.

Not cool.