MB- 7 alters sound
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- Banned
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
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Blue Cat Audio Blue Cat Audio https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=39981 - KVRAF
- 6336 posts since 8 Sep, 2004 from Paris (France)
Hi ttoz,
About Blue Cat's Dynamics: oversampling actually does not introduce any latency, but may introduce changes in the phase of the signal (due to the oversampling/filtering process). I don't know what you are trying to do, but if it's for parallel compression, that's the reason why you have the dry/wet knob. Mixing dry and wet signals outside of a plug-in that may apply non linear phase filtering is not a good idea and might indeed produce phasing issues.
And sorry for the external side chain feature: it has indeed been postponed a couple of times because most customers are happy with the MIDI side chain feature (it has been greatly improved now that you can adjust the rate for MIDI messages) and we had tons of other priorities. But it's still in our todo list.
About the MB-7 Mixer: if you insert the plug-in with its default settings, there should not be any change to the sound. Of course, with crossover filters set to maximum slope and heavy gain changes, there could be some phase effects, but that's expected and explained in the documentation. So if you hear changes with the controls set to neutral positions, there could be a bug that has never been noticed before.
To help us reproduce: is the plug-in the last in the chain? Are you applying additional processing afterwards? Also, have you tried to compare the signal before and after using a spectrum analyzer? What kind of "changes" do you hear and/or see? Have you tried A/B comparisons with the bypass button? Does it still happen with whatever number of bands you may use (1 to 7)?
Thanks for your help.
About Blue Cat's Dynamics: oversampling actually does not introduce any latency, but may introduce changes in the phase of the signal (due to the oversampling/filtering process). I don't know what you are trying to do, but if it's for parallel compression, that's the reason why you have the dry/wet knob. Mixing dry and wet signals outside of a plug-in that may apply non linear phase filtering is not a good idea and might indeed produce phasing issues.
And sorry for the external side chain feature: it has indeed been postponed a couple of times because most customers are happy with the MIDI side chain feature (it has been greatly improved now that you can adjust the rate for MIDI messages) and we had tons of other priorities. But it's still in our todo list.
About the MB-7 Mixer: if you insert the plug-in with its default settings, there should not be any change to the sound. Of course, with crossover filters set to maximum slope and heavy gain changes, there could be some phase effects, but that's expected and explained in the documentation. So if you hear changes with the controls set to neutral positions, there could be a bug that has never been noticed before.
To help us reproduce: is the plug-in the last in the chain? Are you applying additional processing afterwards? Also, have you tried to compare the signal before and after using a spectrum analyzer? What kind of "changes" do you hear and/or see? Have you tried A/B comparisons with the bypass button? Does it still happen with whatever number of bands you may use (1 to 7)?
Thanks for your help.
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
[DELETED]
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
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Blue Cat Audio Blue Cat Audio https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=39981
- KVRAF
- 6336 posts since 8 Sep, 2004 from Paris (France)
About Blue Cat's Dynamics: for oversampling you have basically two choices for filtering. Either use linear phase filters and add latency or use minimum phase filters and have no latency. We just chose the solution without latency.
About Blue Cat's MB-7 Mixer: We don't think you are a newb. Just trying to understand the potential interactions here. Do you hear the same artefacts whatever the number of bands? (even just 1?). Just for sanity check, do you have the plug-in on the master? Wouldn't you be mixing the signal with itself? (there could be the same issue as with the Dynamics plug-in).
About Blue Cat's MB-7 Mixer: We don't think you are a newb. Just trying to understand the potential interactions here. Do you hear the same artefacts whatever the number of bands? (even just 1?). Just for sanity check, do you have the plug-in on the master? Wouldn't you be mixing the signal with itself? (there could be the same issue as with the Dynamics plug-in).
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
[DELETED]
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Blue Cat Audio Blue Cat Audio https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=39981
- KVRAF
- 6336 posts since 8 Sep, 2004 from Paris (France)
Is it possible for you to send us a preset and maybe a short excerpt of the dry signal?
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
[DELETED]
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Blue Cat Audio Blue Cat Audio https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=39981
- KVRAF
- 6336 posts since 8 Sep, 2004 from Paris (France)
Great! You can send the data to our support email address (support [at] bluecataudio [dot] com).
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
[DELETED]
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Blue Cat Audio Blue Cat Audio https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=39981
- KVRAF
- 6336 posts since 8 Sep, 2004 from Paris (France)
This would indeed make sense if this is what happened. As mentioned in the documentation, the issue with very steep filters is the heavy and steep phase shift that occurs at the cutoff frequency. Human ears can hear it pretty well.
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
[DELETED]
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Blue Cat Audio Blue Cat Audio https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=39981
- KVRAF
- 6336 posts since 8 Sep, 2004 from Paris (France)
Hi ttoz,
We definitely do not think that you are imagining this!
We have made additional tests here, including formal spectral measurements and unfortunately we could not reproduce the issue. BUT maybe we are not doing the exact same thing, and also maybe there is a bug specific to the host/format that you are using.
So in order to find out, can you please confirm the following:
- you have a stereo loop on one track.
- you add the "Blue Cat's MB-7 Mixer (Stereo)" plug-in to the master bus, alone, with default settings (flat response, 24 dB/Octave filters).
- all dry/wet or mix parameters are set to 100% in the host application (no "parallel processing")
- no other bus is added to the master after the plug-in.
Also, can you tell us your host application and the format of the plug-in that you are using? If you have a sample project, that would also be awesome to help us find out.
We are sorry for bothering you with these details and questions, but what you describe really sounds like a phase problem where the initial signal is somehow mixed with the output of the plug-in (this would produce a loudness drop as well as holes in the spectrum, just like a comb filter). There could be many causes for that (including a bug on our side, or mono/stereo conversions implicitly made by the host etc.), so we need to investigate further to understand where it comes from.
Thank you for your patience and your help.
We definitely do not think that you are imagining this!
We have made additional tests here, including formal spectral measurements and unfortunately we could not reproduce the issue. BUT maybe we are not doing the exact same thing, and also maybe there is a bug specific to the host/format that you are using.
So in order to find out, can you please confirm the following:
- you have a stereo loop on one track.
- you add the "Blue Cat's MB-7 Mixer (Stereo)" plug-in to the master bus, alone, with default settings (flat response, 24 dB/Octave filters).
- all dry/wet or mix parameters are set to 100% in the host application (no "parallel processing")
- no other bus is added to the master after the plug-in.
Also, can you tell us your host application and the format of the plug-in that you are using? If you have a sample project, that would also be awesome to help us find out.
We are sorry for bothering you with these details and questions, but what you describe really sounds like a phase problem where the initial signal is somehow mixed with the output of the plug-in (this would produce a loudness drop as well as holes in the spectrum, just like a comb filter). There could be many causes for that (including a bug on our side, or mono/stereo conversions implicitly made by the host etc.), so we need to investigate further to understand where it comes from.
Thank you for your patience and your help.
-
- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
[DELETED]
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
[DELETED]