KVR Audio

memyselfandus · Post by **memyselfandus** » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:09 am

Anyone know whats up with this? I just came across this topic

"Live + 3rd party plugins = FAIL"

I was unaware of this stuff. Will have to read the rest of the thread for 2 hours... lol. does the 64 bit beta fix this? I have been waiting for the full version..to try it.

https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157048

From the thread. is this true?

"Lies from the manual:
16.5 Device Delay Compensation
"The compensation algorithm keeps all of Live's tracks in sync, regardless of what their devices are doing".

More countless hours wasted troubleshooting this bugfest... I've been trying to figure out why my production is not sounding as tight as it should (the music I write is has a pretty quick tempo and relies heavily on gating and LFOs). Now I know why.

Try this if you like:

1. Create two audio tracks.
2. Place the same sample on both.
3. On one track insert any of Live's effects that rely on internal timing eg. Beat Repeat or an effect with an LFO such as Autopan and Autofilter (make sure the LFO is on).
5. Now copy this effect to the other track.
6. Insert Live's utility on one track and reverse the phase.

The tracks will phase cancel resulting in silence. This is expected of course.

7. Now, on one track insert any third party plugin of your choice in front of Live's effect. Make sure you turn the plugin off so it's not affecting the signal. Your signal flow should look like this:
Track 1: Beat Repeat
Track 2: 3rd party plug -> Beat Repeat -> Utility

If Device Delay Compensation works the tracks should still phase cancel right? Wrong. In fact the more third party plugins you insert in front of Live's effects the worst the timing gets. Try duplicating the plugin (or adding other plugins) and you'll see what I mean:
Track 1: Beat Repeat
Track 2: 3rd party plug -> 3rd party plug -> 3rd party plug -> Beat Repeat -> Utility

The problem isn't specific to Live's effects either. It's just easy to use them to demonstrate the problem. If you're using any effects that have gates or LFO's, and they're not first in the signal chain then they're not going to be in time. Add this to the fact that your automation isn't delay compensated and the result is a f**king train wreck.

I reported this bug 13 months ago (Ableton confirmed it) but I thought it was a problem specific to 3rd party gating plugins only (in my case CamelSpace). Now it appears that there's actually a major flaw.

I'd like to know if the problem exists on PC's if anyone would care to try.

So... Ableton,

Are you planning on having this fixed in the next release?

Gerhard stated "We have now decided to suspend all development towards new features while the whole team joins forces to address the current issues." Is this still the case? I've seen this question raised a few times on the forum and it's been ignored by Ableton. It makes me wonder that you consider L8 to be free enough of bugs that you've started working on new features. I consider it not fixed. I'd like to know where you're at with it.

23/01/11 Update

The issue has been confirmed by Ableton. It affects all users. Whether it's significant enough to be noticeable in your production depends on which plugins you use and how you order them.

If you'd like to read Ableton's comment and my response please turn to page 9."

The thread started in 2011 and is still going.

justin3am · Post by **justin3am** » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:32 am

I'm also upset that I have to move microphones around BY HAND to keep phase alignment when I do multi-mic recordings!!! Why isn't this done automagically?! ARGH!

Seriously though... This isn't a big concern for me. I don't consider sample accurate PDC to be a high priority. Maybe my music just isn't "tight" or demanding enough to really expose the problems with Live's PDC. Luckily, Live makes it really easy to manually align stuff.

I'm not saying that it isn't a problem for other people. Just not a problem for me.

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:16 am

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ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:18 am

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memyselfandus · Post by **memyselfandus** » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:06 pm

Great.....................

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:24 pm

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memyselfandus · Post by **memyselfandus** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:15 pm

ttoz wrote:ps what i have learned to do is turn off delay compensation in the menu, and use plugins that have zero delay or *very* minimal tiny delay.. on drum tracks, i will only use without exceptions plugins with zero delay. On vocals or synths i am ok to use plugins with up to say 3 or 4 ms of delay as that won't really be noticed in playback that it's not compensating.

The result? all the automation from other tracks etc stays in sync.

Linear phase eq's and stuff though, just forget it in live.. it's WAY too much of a hassle.

what plugins do you use when using Live? does this (issue)include their own plugins??

Kaboom75 · Post by **Kaboom75** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:55 am

So is it better to disable delay compensation if your using U-He synths, Soundtoys, Slate Digital plugs? Never noticed a problem till I read about it here.

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:37 pm

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Eric C. · Post by **Eric C.** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:03 pm

Kaboom75 wrote:So is it better to disable delay compensation if your using U-He synths, Soundtoys, Slate Digital plugs? Never noticed a problem till I read about it here.

I'm not disabling anything that is supposed to work in the first place...

pppppppppp · Post by **pppppppppp** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:26 am

Hello members,

nice thread(s). I got the point, however, for me one question is left:
When using a normal VST Instrument (i.e. Omnispehere or else), i suppose this introduces delay.

Now, will this delay time be reported to a directly following "LFO/sync.." FX VST plugin, or is that constellation already a problematic one?

Live knows the delay of the instrument itself, but which delay is passed over to the sync fx?:
- does it report the instruments delay
- does it report global delay (accumulation of all delays, PDC vallue)
- does it report a delay at all?

If not a problem, why is it working for VST FX directly behind an VST instrument?

Thank you,
Pete

re*MD9@3!Tm^ · Post by **re*MD9@3!Tm^** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:45 am

It seems only a problem for people who read about it instead of listen to their music.

kmonkey · Post by **kmonkey** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:00 am

re*MD9@3!Tm^ wrote:It seems only a problem for people who read about it instead of listen to their music.

That's a good one

pppppppppp · Post by **pppppppppp** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:09 am

You got that fanboi saying mixed up a little. It should say "... Making music...".
I actually listened to and heard this sh*t existing for about 4 years without knowing that pdc implementation is f*cked up in live.
So now i realized that there are issues, which explains alot i've heard im trying to compensate for as much as possible. I did trust the tool much too long.

Thanks anyway for keeping this thread alive.

twolegstoneworks · Post by **twolegstoneworks** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:16 am

It might've been a problem 4 years ago, but today it's a desired feature. You dont want your tracks to be too much in sync anyway. You swing notes slightly back and forth in time. You want that human factor to be heard, to distance your music from the fact that it was made entirely on a computer. Live does all that for you

Ableton Live Device Delay Compensation