Am, F, G, Em
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 101 posts since 24 Dec, 2011
Those notes above...F and G are obvious, but whats am and em?
If em is "e minor" then how would you type "e major" if the m is the same?
Thanks.
If em is "e minor" then how would you type "e major" if the m is the same?
Thanks.
- KVRAF
- 10408 posts since 7 Sep, 2006 from Roseville, CA
They refer to chords, not notes. A minor, F major, G major, E minor (i.e., the major triad is implied, while the "m" denotes a minor chord)maudioradium wrote:Those notes above...F and G are obvious,...
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- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
There are also FMaj and GMaj chords...
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- KVRian
- 1000 posts since 1 Dec, 2004
Chords are major by default. "m" is added to make them minor (some jazz parts use "-" instead, giving A- F G E-).
Chords which have a 7th, such as C7 (C E G Bb), use a minor 7th by default. To get a major 7th, you write Cmaj7 (C E G B). This can be combined with a minor 3rd, giving Cmmaj7 (C Eb G B).
Chords which have a 7th, such as C7 (C E G Bb), use a minor 7th by default. To get a major 7th, you write Cmaj7 (C E G B). This can be combined with a minor 3rd, giving Cmmaj7 (C Eb G B).
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- KVRer
- 1 posts since 16 Jan, 2012
Typically, M = Major m = minor, or as already mentioned Maj for Major. Also, on occaision you will find a triangle drawn in after the chord to show it is Major. Most common is no M noted (as above with the F & G) is Major and a lowercase m is minor.
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- KVRian
- 1000 posts since 1 Dec, 2004
Triangle is a jazz shortand for "maj7", ie that the chord has a 7th and that this 7th is major.ShredX wrote:Typically, M = Major m = minor, or as already mentioned Maj for Major. Also, on occaision you will find a triangle drawn in after the chord to show it is Major. Most common is no M noted (as above with the F & G) is Major and a lowercase m is minor.
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- KVRAF
- 21348 posts since 26 Jul, 2005 from Gone
Do you mean diminished instead of minor? If you don't specify minor or Major, the assumption is a diminished Major 7th.MadBrain wrote:Chords which have a 7th, such as C7 (C E G Bb), use a minor 7th by default.
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- KVRian
- 1000 posts since 1 Dec, 2004
No, I mean a minor 7th, counting from the chord root.robojam wrote:Do you mean diminished instead of minor? If you don't specify minor or Major, the assumption is a diminished Major 7th.MadBrain wrote:Chords which have a 7th, such as C7 (C E G Bb), use a minor 7th by default.
C7 = C E G Bb (Bb is a minor 7th higher than C)
Cm7 = C Eb G Bb (Bb is also a minor 7th higher than C)
Cm7b5 = C Eb Gb Bb (Bb is still a minor 7th higher than C)
A diminished 7th (essentially a major 6th) happens only in diminished chords:
Cdim7 = C Eb Gb Bbb (Bbb is a diminished 7th up from C). This is often spelled as C Eb Gb A to avoid the double-flat spelling.
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JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
My post here might be helpful.
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
When you see plain ol' "C7" in a lead sheet or what-have-you, you assume Bb, right? That is a minor seventh from the root of the C chord.robojam wrote:Do you mean diminished instead of minor? If you don't specify minor or Major, the assumption is a diminished Major 7th.MadBrain wrote:Chords which have a 7th, such as C7 (C E G Bb), use a minor 7th by default.
So it is a *major, minor seventh* chord.
A *minor, minor seventh* chord: eg., C Eb G Bb.
A diminished seventh here will be B double flat, almost always off a diminished triad, eg., C Eb Gb Bbb. (*diminished, diminished seventh*)
'Half diminished', eg., C Eb Gb Bb, is a *diminished, minor seventh* chord. Aka minor seven flat five chord.
The way we call seventh is, in descending order: major, minor, diminished. You may think of C-Bb as 'diminishing' the size of the C-B interval in literal terms, but the thing is known as minor.
This naming is true of thirds as well, albeit E double flat vis a vis C, a diminished third is not real common as it is usually a major second. Same with sixths.
An otherwise 'Perfect' fifth, fourth, or octave is augmented or diminished right away, with no major or minor quality.
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- KVRist
- 294 posts since 25 Apr, 2006
I was reading a few of the posts on notating a C7 and what is refers to..and I started getting confused myself for a second. but then I slowly X'd out kvr and back away.
but really, it seems this is becoming over-thought even by the most seasoned players here. Perhaps I am wrong too, but when I see in a chord chard a 'C7' (or any letter with only a 7 attached to it) I think of 2 things and only 2 things:
1. this has a flat 7th
2. This has a major 3rd
unless I am incorrect (which does tend to happen more then I'd like!), theres nothing more to a C7 than a C major with a flatted 7th.
When it comes to most music theory- especially at the more basic level- the key IMO is more being able to RELATE to the material, than just understanding the concept.
but really, it seems this is becoming over-thought even by the most seasoned players here. Perhaps I am wrong too, but when I see in a chord chard a 'C7' (or any letter with only a 7 attached to it) I think of 2 things and only 2 things:
1. this has a flat 7th
2. This has a major 3rd
unless I am incorrect (which does tend to happen more then I'd like!), theres nothing more to a C7 than a C major with a flatted 7th.
When it comes to most music theory- especially at the more basic level- the key IMO is more being able to RELATE to the material, than just understanding the concept.
"You must not only aim aright, but draw the bow with all your might."
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I felt like sorting robojam's 'diminished major 7' which isn't a useful term, by how the terms are arrived at.
I saw no overthinking. I saw underthinking with MB's 'the chords default to major, the seventh defaults to minor'. There is no default chord or default seventh, that's talking about names in pop music kind of charts.
You see 'C7', yes, 'E' & 'Bb' is the assumption. This was clear before you posted, I believe.
Your 'major/flat seventh chord' is known as 'major/minor seventh' as a completely objective term.
If one should become more interested and take a course, one is likely to find 'seventh chord' only means 'there is a seventh (of some quality) in addition to a triad'.
Your 'overthinking' is really 'more thorough than I'd like at this stage', isn't it.
Why is it a 'flat' 7th? The largest thing we can call a seventh is called major; below that, it's called minor; below that it's called diminished.1. this has a flat 7th
2. This has a major 3rd
I saw no overthinking. I saw underthinking with MB's 'the chords default to major, the seventh defaults to minor'. There is no default chord or default seventh, that's talking about names in pop music kind of charts.
You see 'C7', yes, 'E' & 'Bb' is the assumption. This was clear before you posted, I believe.
Your 'major/flat seventh chord' is known as 'major/minor seventh' as a completely objective term.
If one should become more interested and take a course, one is likely to find 'seventh chord' only means 'there is a seventh (of some quality) in addition to a triad'.
Your 'overthinking' is really 'more thorough than I'd like at this stage', isn't it.
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- KVRist
- 294 posts since 25 Apr, 2006
As a musician I am very (too much) self taught: Not in the sense of total lack or disregard for theory, but rather I attempted to teach myself without the guise of a proper instructor or mentor,,which is very unfortunate and often creates a bit of a communication barrier when I discuss music with somebody who was properly trained..or anybody other than myself for that matter.jancivil wrote:I felt like sorting robojam's 'diminished major 7' which isn't a useful term, by how the terms are arrived at.
Why is it a 'flat' 7th? The largest thing we can call a seventh is called major; below that, it's called minor; below that it's called diminished.1. this has a flat 7th
2. This has a major 3rd
1 such byproduct of this ^^ is that I tend to sometimes use the major scale as a roadmap by default when I shouldn't. So, in the above case of C7: I know the defining characteristic is in the major 3rd/ minor 7th combination, and when I try to visualize that, I take the C major scale's 7th degree and flatten the note 1 semitone. thus I say to myself flatted 7th. thank you for reminding me that is not the way to communicate the idea.
I saw no overthinking. I saw underthinking with MB's 'the chords default to major, the seventh defaults to minor'.
I wouldn't phrase it as 'under-thinking' at all, but rather just 'inaccurate 'thinking' that seemed a little extraneous. In fact, as someone who seems pretty active and interested in music theory, I very much assumed that MB just had a brain fart, and may have been examining too many elements while trying to explain the chords actual meaning. Hence, the reason I fibbed about 'overthinking'.
And just to note, I'm not sure if you thought that comment was directed at you, but it was not at all. In fact, your initial response could not have been any more on the money.
To most ppl, you are probably correct. However, your parlance can sometimes be overwhelming to the ppl who are teaching themselves or just getting started. I know that when I am doing self study, I routinely have to google these classical terms to get myself up to speed.There is no default chord or default seventh, that's talking about names in pop music kind of charts.
You see 'C7', yes, 'E' & 'Bb' is the assumption. This was clear before you posted, I believe.
That said, I felt it may be helpful post to those who are new to this and trying to grasp everything you said in your earlier posts but still feel overwhelmed.
Not at all. I am confident I understand the implication and application of a dominant..err, 'major flat 7th' But If there is another stage here that I have yet to arrive at- that will improve my application of music- I am all ears.Your 'overthinking' is really 'more thorough than I'd like at this stage', isn't it.
"You must not only aim aright, but draw the bow with all your might."
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
It's fine, I asked the rhetorical question to indicate what's being flatted. The largest seventh that really works as a seventh is called major. 'Flat 7th' is normal, most everybody would call it that. My post was primarily out of sorting 'diminished major 7th' which is a confusion of terms. 'Flat the seventh' doesn't bring in another named interval, 'diminished' so we would prefer that. But we should know from 'Major; smaller than that by a semitone is minor; smaller than that by a semitone is diminished' in terms of sevenths, thirds and sixths. Albeit diminished in the latter two cases is unusual.musikjock wrote:
1 such byproduct of this ^^ is that I tend to sometimes use the major scale as a roadmap by default when I shouldn't. So, in the above case of C7: I know the defining characteristic is in the major 3rd/ minor 7th combination, and when I try to visualize that, I take the C major scale's 7th degree and flatten the note 1 semitone. thus I say to myself flatted 7th. thank you for reminding me that is not the way to communicate the idea.
Exception: there is a meaningful augmented sixth (while eg., 'augmented seventh', or third not so much) out of how it works. That is more 'second year: chromatic', though.
Not really, MB had provided the same level of detail, I took it as a general comment on either/both.overthinking
I'm not sure if you thought that comment was directed at you, but it was not at all. In fact, your initial response could not have been any more on the money.
I didn't like 'the chord defaults to major' some time ago, but not motivated really to post that objection, I think everybody knows what he meant. Then I noticed 'diminished major' and decided to sort that.
I'm unsure of what is overwhelming. 'major/minor seventh' comes from 1st year 'diatonic harmony' at community college for me, and after that was the same terminology.your parlance can sometimes be overwhelming to the ppl who are teaching themselves or just getting started. I know that when I am doing self study, I routinely have to google these classical terms to get myself up to speed.
I don't know why it's more daunting than "1. This has a flat 7th. 2. This has a major 3rd."
It's objective. IE: While practically everybody knows what we mean by 'flat 7th', the seventh of V7 (eg., G7 in key of C) is diatonic, nothing was flatted.
I say these things as food for thought.
The type does occur typically in functional harmony as 'dominant seventh' but in say James Brown, as the main chord in a vamp, it isn't that thing at all. But 'E7' is fine.
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someone called simon someone called simon https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=185637
- KVRian
- 543 posts since 24 Jul, 2008 from a small city in a small country in the antipodes
Can you clear up some misapprehensions I may have had about chord names here...
And, I always called the chord you mention below a 'diminished seventh', as it had a 7th instead of the 6th I talk of above. I have heard of half diminished but thought it synonymous with diminished seventh.
when you say Bbb, is that equivalent in pitch to an A? If not, what does it mean? If so, I have always just called this chord a 'diminished', and thought of it as having minor 3rd, flat 5th, and a 6th rather than a double flattened 7th. Is there a reason I shouldn't think of that note as a 6th?jancivil wrote: A diminished seventh here will be B double flat, almost always off a diminished triad, eg., C Eb Gb Bbb. (*diminished, diminished seventh*)
And, I always called the chord you mention below a 'diminished seventh', as it had a 7th instead of the 6th I talk of above. I have heard of half diminished but thought it synonymous with diminished seventh.
jancivil wrote: 'Half diminished', eg., C Eb Gb Bb, is a *diminished, minor seventh* chord. Aka minor seven flat five chord.