Linnstrument vs Push 3 (and what it means)

[Roger_Linn]

It’s certainly a wonderful time to be a synthesist.

I couldn’t agree more.

[michaeljk1963]

Just read Roger's FAQ page about the Push 3. As expected, it is thoughtful, insightful, respectful and gracious. May Roger be with us for the next 50 years! I wanted to chime in on Roger's sentiments, as someone who both owns a Linnstrument (128) and just ordered a Push 3 today. I've been a Logic Pro user for a long time (since eMagic days and hefty printed libraries of manuals--I think the original box it came in weighed like 5-10 pounds with all the books). In preparation for Push 3, I also bought an upgrade to Live Suite from Live Lite (didn't even know I had a lite license that I registered 10 years ago). Anyway, started messing with Live Suite today and it proved Roger's point--finally, MPE is entering the mainstream. There are a couple of instruments that Ableton has built around MPE, or made it a central feature, but there are also lots of little places where you find MPE coming in--"Packs" from third parties like Spitfire that have MPE capabilities (rudimentary, but still) built right into the "instrument" and effects rack. It is indeed so fun to see all of this unfolding.

I will be keeping my Linnstrument because, although I am not an advanced player like Roger referenced, the fact that the keys are the size of my fingers works well for how I like to play, especially with x and y axis. I like being able to "roll" each finger independently to modify various parameters without actually moving the position of my finger on each pad or to a different pad, especially when using a stable chord for droning (e.g. Hydrasynth, but now also Drift, Wavetable, and many other devices currently in the early stages of development by Ableton and third-parties). I won't be able to do this, if at all, or very well on the Push. I will also be keeping my Linnstrument because Roger designed it, and I like having a reminder of his genius and creativity in my studio.

While I am glad the push has MPE for all the reasons Roger and others have noted, that is not the main reason I am getting it. I really want something that links my hardware setup to my DAW, and I think Push has finally reached the point that it will make sense as that bridge (or part of it).

[Mirrorlover]

So I have had my Push 3 for a decent amount of days now and used it on a gig.

Some random thoughts

They really are not comparable devices but here we go.

Velocity playing is great, probably the best pads for drums ever. At the most sensitive settings it's slightly more sensitive than linnstrument, but I know under the hood it is possible to make Linnstrument more sensitive.

Pressure response is about the same with similar settings. although Push 3 is much easily more customizable.

The slide is cool. The pads are big enough that with some practice you really can consistently hit certain sounds.

Some Con

Pitch Bend is just not as smooth as Linnstrument no matter how much I mess with the settings and my playing technique.

Ableton's MPE Implementation is still plagued with with issues.

Just like Their MPE control plugin, all note off messages are forced to 64. Note off is broken and useless. Although I personally don't really use note off much except for the rare really mild effect.

No multiple instances of the same note. This is a Big issue for me personally. Just play a lick either with 2 of the same note or even just the same note in rapid succession and see how annoying it is.

and the some other odd quirks here and there with their MPE implementation.

Chordal playing on push is just simply not really appealing with you have a Linnstrument to compare.

Pros.

Playing monophonic lead lines and drums is truly a pleasure, not having to be so accurate is nice in the heat of the moment at a gig, Assign a Knob or the Touch Strip to change a couple of octaves and you can quickly navigate the entire human hearing range no problem.

Standalone. Being a bass player I've grown accustomed to plugging in 0 (upright bass) or 2 (bass and power for amp) things and then being at set to go. For 2 hours on battery you can plug one cable and be ready to go. (although I have to also bring a stand to put the push on)

Super fun and inspiring built in logical creative workflow (Subjective, but I think so).

All that being said I'm not sure if I will be Keeping the Push. The reality is I simply want a Standalone Linnstrument without any external attachments.

[FranklyFlawless]

All that being said I'm not sure if I will be Keeping the Push. The reality is I simply want a Standalone Linnstrument without any external attachments.

That will remain a long-standing issue. There has been efforts made to resolve this, notably the Anker PowerCore+ Mini for the LinnStrument 200, and recent interest from Roger during the May 2nd Zoom meeting for an embedded Rasperry Pi 4 using Surge XT, but no development yet for an internal speaker. Other MPE hardware controllers are not standalone either, and also deal with an external dependency, one way or another.

[SteveElbows]

The 'MIDI capture' button which you can press to turn recent MIDI/pads input on armed tracks that you didnt record at the time into clips is really great when used with MPE. All those moments where you do something great with an MPE controller but werent recording are no longer lost.

[John the Savage]

... but no development yet for an internal speaker.

A standalone LinnStrument? By all means, yes, please.

With an internal speaker? For the love of music, no. That would be tragic.

A switchable line/headphone jack would be dignified and more than adequate.

Cheers!

[WasteLand]

first of all i want to thank Roger Linn for his honest (and that was already the case before) comparison between the Push 3 and the Linnstrument as MPE controllers.

Roli also listed other hardware MPE manufacturers, it doesn't do it anymore...

i think this will be TL;DR, with some not-to-the point (personal) information.

so skip to last for thé question....

i started playing with MPE about 3 years ago, a new Seabord block (at that time already almost not to get new...), for a second hand price, via a quite known retailer in europe.
it was a new world for me, and in a way known world, it felt like a glove, but it took some time to learn to play it well, in my own, for my style of music, a few months. and still sometimes, learn, of course. you always learn.
i bought almost immediately a Lightpad M block with, second hand. second hand prices were quite low for them.

so, my MPE setup, is what someone here called a 'my first sony' setup, i replied in that same thread, that it wasn't for me. the proof is in the pudding, how program my own MPE presets, always make my own, and how i play them and what the result, the effect is.

at this moment i have what Roli calls or called a Surface:
2 x Roli Seabord block and 2 x Lightpad M block
(indeed i bought second a second seabord block and a second lightpad M block).

which gives me a lot of playing styles.

i am no MPE expert, nor do i have a formal training in music, but i am eager to learn, i do study, do try to read, about synthesis, to understand more and more, and of course: experience, and perhaps a aptitude for making music (in a strange way... i don't know...). i don't make music that is mainstream, i do experiment, within my style, and all the tracks/songs i made, have enough differences, i make a lot different tracks with different 'effects'. o well, i can formulate it well now.

a bit stressed out, which is in periods normal for me, with my state (chronic severe depression, and 2 chronic anxiety disorders).

in a way what i write here all is relevant, because everything, you own way of making music, is personal, of course with overwhelming amount of influence of what is out there, soft synths, hardware controllers, the music. friends, experiences.
we live by sensory stimulation, that fires up our 'soul'...

i also have a Joué Play, bought it, although i am not that mobile, to use it at another place. but that place 'has gone', so i don't know if i keep it. not bad, but not great. but good enough for me, when i was at the other place.

i bought the Push 3, i knew it would come, with MPE....

and not being poor, but certainly not rich, still, well...

Velocity playing is great, probably the best pads for drums ever. At the most sensitive settings it's slightly more sensitive than linnstrument, but I know under the hood it is possible to make Linnstrument more sensitive.

Pressure response is about the same with similar settings. although Push 3 is much easily more customizable.

the question, is it training muscle memory, it seems to, and also settings for sensitivity, that you can play the Push 3 that first strike will be almost velocity only, and afterwards you apply pressure (of course you can want both, but it is about, the difference...)?

on the Seabord Blocks, it mostly works quite well.

why mostly, the setup, how everything is placed is not that ideal... but i can play velocity/pressure with Seabord, when i want to...

with the Push 3 it seems i must learn to strike, how to apply the strength, that velocity and pressure are not almost idenitcal, at the first strike.

but i already can play it with velocity, almost no pressure, but not in a stable way yet, many, many mistakes.

in a way i told a part of story, how i got into MPE, and also how my music changed because of it.

the Linnstrument is always in my mind, but there is a psychological barrier, it is more meant for people that have great playing skills. i have my own 'great' playing skill. well; why? it works for my music, am still a student, i must learn a lot, and i don't mind, but i believe i already have made things are a quite, well, interesting, at least. (and that independent developers also like that i make some presets for them, that is not my goal, but it is a honour, they do also like my music. so...).

it sometimes very difficult, if don't have a large budget (although i spent i a lot on software, so in way, i don't spent a lot anymore, a Linnstrument can be viable to buy at some point, perhaps sooner than i think.)

also that is a question, how is playing the Linnstrument when you want velocity and then pressure, and not at the same time?

(i admit a very strange reply, but i feel it now that way, everything is personal, although it is also public....)

and i again, i want to thank Roger Linn, for his well, instruments, i was a singer in a not a unknown band, for a certain scene, that had a linndrum as drumcomputer....

and thank him for a place here on KVR, that i feel that i can tell this, and ask this.

so the main the thing; MPE playing style on Push 3, how to play that velocity only at first strike (...) and as little as possible pressure.

strangely for such a long post, i do use velocity for my MPE presets, but mostly; not.......

still... it is important... (like release velocity; the Push 3 sends it, when you fire up another DAW, but Live itself does not record or recognize it, yet...)

[pdxindy]

Yeah for me much prefer playing in chromatic mode, allows for much more control & makes much more musical sense.

The reason I wouldn't use scales is because it gets in the way of developing muscle memory if the surface is always changing.

Also seems weird to slide one pad and have that be different amount of pitch change for different pads. I wouldn't like that.

[pdxindy]

I will be keeping my Linnstrument because, although I am not an advanced player like Roger referenced, the fact that the keys are the size of my fingers works well for how I like to play, especially with x and y axis.

There is a lot I don't know about Push 3 in terms of easy configuration.

One of the great strengths of the Linnstrument is that for configuration, it is standalone. I can quickly and efficiently change so any parameters right on the Linnstrument. If I want to play one of my hardware synths, I can configure the Linnstrument in seconds to fit it. For example, the Elektron Digitone. It does not support MPE as such, but it is 4 part multi-timbral so one can set all 4 tracks to the same preset and set the Linnstrument to out midi channels 1-4. The Digitone does not support CC74, but it does support Breath (CC2) and it is easy to switch the Linnstrument to Y axis to CC2.

The Linnstrument can save presets, but I never use them cause I find it so fast to set it how I want on the fly.

So I'm curious how configurable Push 3 is in these ways.

One of the reasons I would be unlikely to use Live is because it does not record midi channels. So if I have something like my Analog 4, with 4 tracks, and I set each track to a different sound, and play the Linnstrument (set to channels 1-4) it will play a different sound for each note. That is an example where Live would not play back in the same way you recorded it because it just randomizes midi channels. So Linnstrument works with any DAW that supports MPE and Push 3 only works with Live.

Also, it doesn't get talked about much, but I am regularly using the channel per row mode of the Linnstrument. I hardly used it at all for years, then I 'discovered' it and wouldn't want to do without it now.

[SteveElbows]

So I'm curious how configurable Push 3 is in these ways.

I didnt spot a way to change CC value yet, which isnt too surprising as the recording/editing MPE aspect of Live is probably expecting CC74. It might be possible to write a little conversion module in Max4Live that would sit before the External Instrument device or soft instrument, but I havent established whether this will actually work or whether Live is still expecting only MPE standard messages at this stage of the pipeline too.

There is the ability to limit the range of MIDI channels used in the External Instrument device when its in MPE mode, so that MPE will work with synths such as the OB-6.

One of the reasons I would be unlikely to use Live is because it does not record midi channels. So if I have something like my Analog 4, with 4 tracks, and I set each track to a different sound, and play the Linnstrument (set to channels 1-4) it will play a different sound for each note. That is an example where Live would not play back in the same way you recorded it because it just randomizes midi channels. So Linnstrument works with any DAW that supports MPE and Push 3 only works with Live.

One advantage of dynamic MIDI channel allocation in a MPE sequencer is for the scenario where you want to overdub more MPE notes later. I've not actually tried this with Live yet, but the same principal applies on the Squarp Hapax which I have tried.

As for use with other DAWs, obviously the Push 3 has Live baked in but you can then use its MPE MIDI output with other DAWs if you want. When it comes to the controller version of Push 3 (or the standalone version in controller mode), in theory it will be possible to make it work with other DAWs. The documentation for 3rd party developers to access the Push 2 also applies to the Push 3, and its possible to figure out the other MIDI messages that are unique to the Push 3. So its only a matter of time, will and effort before developers make it work with Bitwig etc. That effort will be greater with the Push 3 because they will have to write their own code to make the MPE pads generate the MPE MIDI notes they want, and correctly pitch slide between the notes allocated to each pad.

[WasteLand]

I didnt spot a way to change CC value yet, which isnt too surprising as the recording/editing MPE aspect of Live is probably expecting CC74. It might be possible to write a little conversion module in Max4Live that would sit before the External Instrument device or soft instrument, but I havent established whether this will actually work or whether Live is still expecting only MPE standard messages at this stage of the pipeline too.

you can convert i think, didn't try it.

As for use with other DAWs, obviously the Push 3 has Live baked in but you can then use its MPE MIDI output with other DAWs if you want. When it comes to the controller version of Push 3 (or the standalone version in controller mode), in theory it will be possible to make it work with other DAWs.

i have the controller 'edition', it works of course with other DAWs, cubase, reaper, bitwig, all MPE DAWs, and even sends... Release Velocity.... (that Live have a special lane for, under Note Expression, but it does not record/receive it yet from the Push 3..........)

i had a long post, some posts before, a too long story..

question: velocity/pressure. i think it is mainly muscle memory, getting used to it, i think and play with the sensitivity settings (and perhaps curves in MPE Control Midi tool);
that the first 'strike' mainly sends velocity, and almost none pressure.

i can achieve it, but not in a stable way yet, to play it fluently.

is that also a thing you experienced?

(in the long post i mention, that my main MPE setup is 2 x Seabord Block - 2 x Seabord Lightpad M Block, that i am very very used to. it is a different 'surface', and the Push 3 does not stand ideal, and also it stands on a stand... ISBERGET, from ikea....)

[Roger_Linn]

The thing I miss about Live's MPE implementation--which doesn't record the received MIDI channel with the event in the sequence--is the inability to play 2 or more notes of the same pitch, which you can do on LinnStrument and the new Push but not on Seaboard or Continuum. They're still indexing sequence notes by pitch, presumably because changing the sequence data structure would cause lots of backward-compatibility problems.

[John the Savage]

Using the MPC as a host means having to set up a separate MIDI track for each MPE channel. Then I have to point each of the those tracks at my Argon. It's a bit of a kludge, to be sure. However, the one advantage, I suppose, is that it's possible to then record a performance to the sequencer as played (including redundant notes), and each note retains its respective MIDI channel and articulation data.

It would be easy enough to replicate this workflow in Live, rather than being at the mercy of Live's dynamic channel allocation.

That said, I much prefer to record audio over MIDI, because (as an instrumentalist) I feel as though that's the whole point of playing an instrument. To which end, if I don't get a good take, I just do it again. I personally find that more rewarding. Never mind the ever-growing importance of authenticity.

Cheers!

[Ou_Tis]

. Also the price point isn't bad at all- you get a good MPE player, an Audio Interface and a fantastic Live (or Bitwig) controller with capacitive rotaries, a big display, lots of buttons, transport control, touch strip etc- a lot of people will see value in 'the package' not just the MPE part.

I think PUSH 3 will make grid based MPE mainstream, which can only be good for everyone with more MPE VSTS as standard

So the non-standalone works as a general MPE controller for any MPE-compatible DAW? Why do you say Bitwig specifically? Do you mean that the similarities between Live and Bitwig make it possible for a user to map the Live controls to the Bitwig equivalents? Or does it automatically map them over for you?

[SteveElbows]

So the non-standalone works as a general MPE controller for any MPE-compatible DAW?

I would answer this with a big no at this current moment in time.

Why do you say Bitwig specifically? Do you mean that the similarities between Live and Bitwig make it possible for a user to map the Live controls to the Bitwig equivalents? Or does it automatically map them over for you?

Developers will need to do lots of work to make it work well with all other DAWs. DrivenByMoss is an excellent candidate to make this work with Bitwig in future, but only once the developer has added Push 3 support to that system. I think DrivenByMoss also supports Reaper but I have no experience with that.

Without that work being done, it is possible to get some basic MPE stuff out of the pads, but the pads wont even be lit, setting the pads to scales wont work, and you'd have to use Live briefly to make sure the pads are put into MPE mode and have their sensitivity settings put to values you require.

Standalone version is different in this respect because Live is built in and so can handle all of the above stuff, and then output MPE MIDI to a DAW on your computer.