Jack frustrations (now sorted)

[MartynM]

I realise that this might be a bit contraversial for seasoned Linux audio users (Lump, feel free to comment) but I'm trying my hardest to understand why Jack support is compulsory to the success of a Linux audio app.

I've been trying to get a workable (hassle free) audio setup running on Linux for a while now, firstly using a planet ccrma Fedora3 setup, which was pretty successful, but certainly not hassle free, and recently using Ubuntu Studio. My Terratec card worked fine with Jack on the ccrma setup, but now doesn't seem to work at all in ubuntu studio. Every single stumbling block I (or anyone else it seems) have had when trying to get some sort of audio workstation running in linux has been down to Jack.

Now, while I fully realise the work people have put in to making a universal connecting device to make lots of separate apps work together, I can't help but think that this has only happened because there has (until now maybe) been no suitable host that is actually good enough to create a closed standard like vst. All I want to be able to do is run XT2 and have a set of inputs from my card and a set of outputs from my card. I only need a very basic set of workhorse plugins (to run INSIDE XT2) and a good audio editor. I don't want to run Hydrogen, Ardour, Zynaddsubfx(fantastic though it is) or any other existing Linux audio audio synth via a jack interface.

I realise that some of this might sound a bit harsh to anyone who has put a lot of hard work into some of those apps, and tried to get them all to work well together, but the truth is, I'm only interested in running XT2. Hopefully, people might start coding new plugins to use with it after a while.

I think Jack is a great idea in theory, in practise I think it just over complicates everything if all you need is a single closed system.
Please could some enlightened Linux soul explain to me why XT2 NEEDS to connect via Jack? Cos to be frank, I don't really want to use it at all.

Cheers

M

[Amberience]

I guess the talk about Jack is to have it as an option not as a compulsory method.

[sonicfire]

why not just go windows? hassle free!
(sorry couldn't resist)

[jorgen]

MartynM, xt2 will not require Jack. It will run out of the box on linux 2.6 kernel (ALSA has to support your soundcard though)

cheers
jorgen

[Lump]

I realise that this might be a bit contraversial for seasoned Linux audio users (Lump, feel free to comment) but I'm trying my hardest to understand why Jack support is compulsory to the success of a Linux audio app.

The answer is quite easy: because JACK is the proAudio standard for AudioLinux. This means lowlatency - I'm playing real keyboards with softsynths and guitar with ampsimulations (old school musican) With jack I have 2,9 ms latency (with a good audiocard) and can use very huge setups with 12 synths without freezing. I like to have lowlatency, because this giving me the best (real) feeling to play software instruments.

The native ALSA latency will be 2048ms, that means, when I press a key, the sound will appear 2 secounds later...

So your question is like "for what ASIO is needed, my windows mediaplayer working without that"

I think Jack is a great idea in theory,

OMG, jack is not theory, it is practical working (stable, performant) for a lots musicans...

Ubuntu Studio

ubuntustudio is a nice idea and I like Dana Olson (the founder) very much, but pro(ductive)Audio on ubuntu has still a lots of limitations. ubuntu is not specialized for pro(ductive)audio and it will need much improvements to be a good lowlatency music system. For example, I have a RME Hammerfall which is working fine with SUSE 10.0 JAD but not with ubuntu. But SUSE 10.0 JAD (www.jacklab.net) is optimized and tested to be a proAudiosystem, ubuntu is a distribution for mainly office and internet.

If you don't like to be an early adaptor, stay on Windows.

I'm using Windows since 1999 for proAudio and Linux since over a one and a half year and I founded and managing one of the proAudio projects for a big distribution, I know what I'm talking about and have real experiences.

Trust in me -I love eXT and I want the best for a Linux port. JACK is the only way for proAudio on Linux, like ASIO for Windows.

[jorgen]

Are you saying that ALSA latency will be 2048ms and Jack is the only low latency alternative on linux?

jorgen

[alex zonder]

When I read the topic title, I initially thought you had't found the right forum YET

[Lump]

Are you saying that ALSA latency will be 2048ms and Jack is the only low latency alternative on linux?

jorgen

yes you got it!!!!

[zOap]

There is no question about that Jack as great app, and it works like hell. Why you can't get it to work I don't know, but I have had none or smaller issues before getting it to work. Maybe you should sit down and learn how jack works, study your interface. This will get you some insight.

The low latency Jack offers is over the moon. To use just alsa when you have this great toolkit available is like pissing into the wind. You know you'll regret it.

There are several good linux audio projects, deMudi is one of them. Ubuntu Dapper was a huge step up for Ubuntu in this area, and from what I've heard it will get better. I've never used SUSE Jad, mainly because I'm a big fan of Debian and apt. I have no references to SUSE other than I tried it a couple of years ago and was not satisfied. At all... But what might not be my cup of tea, could certainly be someone elses...

[druid]

To be honest, I don't know Jack about Linux. :D

(sorry)

[Lump]

Jack is the only low latency alternative on linux?

PS
Please Jorgen, go in dialogue with Paul Davis (JACK, Ardour) maybe over the LAD. I'm not a developer but i remember that he and Torben Hohn (netjack, galan, FST) try to talk with you about that. JACK is not an idea, it is reality and as i understand, it is simple and clean and has a much better documentation then ALSA. And it is easy for everybody to work with jack in a emulation mode (softmode) on a not specified distribution (but with a lack of performance). Modern proAudio apps on linux only need a jack api. (like Ardour)
I'm also ready to make some tutorials specialy for eXT2 users. So if there is any beta preview, let me know, so we can start with a helpfull background for the release.

But for now I see a lot of confusion and rumours about linux.

[MartynM]

Lots of anwers to lots of questions, cheers.

xt2 will not require Jack. It will run out of the box on linux 2.6 kernel (ALSA has to support your soundcard though

What sort of latency can we expect just using ALSA alone, is it true that low latencies can only be achieved using Jack? I presume ALSA is working fine with my soundcard, Jack doesn't like it though, it only works using my motherboard sound.

If you don't like to be an early adaptor, stay on Windows.

Thanx for the encouragement, I tried to word my questions in a way as to not offend, obviously I didn't do too well If i didn't want to run audio on Linux I wouldn't be either trying to do it or even interested in starting a thread like this, I'm just finding Jack to be a real PITA, thats all, and don't have any intention of using any existing Linux audio apps I've tried so far.
I do have another question for you though, if Jack uses ALSA to achieve its low latency, why can't ALSA be used by another app to do the same thing?

I really do want audio running on Linux, my reasons are that I am already using Linux for everything else I use a computer for. The graphics apps are simply wonderful (I'm a visual artist foremost) the internet runs really well and securely, cds and dvds burn perfectly, I can stream more media than in Windows, the community spirit is a breath of fresh air, the choice of user experience is gobsmacking. I could go on and on.

I need Windows for two things, Ableton Live5 (which I'm rapidly getting tired of) and energyXT.

Do I want audio on Linux

A Jack connection from my head into the brain of a seasoned Linux guru would be pretty handy though

Cheers

M

[MartynM]

There is no question about that Jack as great app, and it works like hell. Why you can't get it to work I don't know, but I have had none or smaller issues before getting it to work. Maybe you should sit down and learn how jack works, study your interface. This will get you some insight.

I had it running in the planet ccrma setup, so I know it does work, maybe it's just an ubuntu thing. I installed ubuntu because I simply wanted to learn everything myself, a friend helped me install PlanetCCRMA and Fedora 3 and while good, i couldnt install the latest graphics apps because of dependency problems. I didn't particularly get along with any of the audio apps, so I installed ubuntu myself, and found the whole process refreshingly easy.

I'll do some more internettery and try to find out if there are ubuntu/Jack/Terratec issues.

Earz

edit

I see a lot of confusion and rumours about linux.

That's just because it is quite confusing for some of us newbies, help from people like you is greatly valued, please don't misunderstand.

[jorgen]

fyi, I can run xt2 on latest ubuntu with 128 frames buffer size, 64K buffered disk streaming with real-time time-stretching playback of wav's and (my little linux sine) VST without any audio dropouts (runing audio playback in high priority thread).

This is with OSS and ALSA on a "vanilla" 2.6 kernel and my SBLive card.



cheers
jorgen

[jackson]