Hi Greg (and anyone else who can provide helpful advice),
You already know I think Cherry Bass sounds awesome. And I love the sound of the demos. One demo in particular that I love is "Demo 3" for Cherry Bass Picked (that was the demo I listened to and said, I need to get this library). However, I'm no expert at mixing (I'm just an old drummer with no engineering skills) and was wondering if you could provide some simple tips on how to get a great bass sound and different effects/amps sims that can be useful. Are there some simple tips you could provide about eq'ing bass and using effects?
Do you recommend using a bass amp sim? I recall in an earlier thread that you stated you merely used EQ on some of the Cherry Bass on one of the demos I really liked. But I don't have a clue what to do. Are there any simple pointers you could provide?
I write melodic rock music. I love the bass tones on all of those old Beatles albums, Jon Brion (which just imitates the Beatles stuff), Snow Patrol, Coldplay, Ben Folds Five -- somewhere along those lines. I would also like to simulate the distorted bass sound that was often used in Ben Fold Five Songs, such as "Song for the Dumped" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URz1qJ3aC4M).
Anyhow, I'm guessing that the answer is not as easy as a few tips in a simple post, but I'd be quite happy if you could point me in the right direction.
Thanks,
eDrummist
Tips on Getting a Great Bass Sound Using Samples
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- "The" Jazz
- 4562 posts since 18 Aug, 2004 from California, United States
First of all, it's very important to get a good mix between the bass and the drums. Make sure that the kick drum and the bass don't interfere, otherwise use EQ to create space for both instruments to coexist. Making a wide but subtle cut around the 100hz range in the bass can help.
The levels of both the drums and bass need to be at just the right range, so they mix together well. Adding compressor to the bass will give you more control over the volume of the bass. I recommend using a fast attack time, in the 10-15ms range. Don't go crazy on the compression ratio, unless you really want that quality (which works well on picked bass in some instances). The ratio of the compressor should match the estimated overall compression on the drums.
One thing I like to do is to match the room reverb in both the drums and the bass. Unless the drums were recorded in an anechoic chamber or a really well-isolated drum room, you should get a sense of the room space. Since the electric bass guitar is recorded DI (directly from the output of the bass into the mixer), it will be as dry sounding as it gets. I recommend applying subtle reverb to the mids and highs of the bass track to emulate the same spacial characteristics as on the drum track, as it will help unify the tone of these two instruments.
This drum/bass connection is extremely important to provide a solid foundation for the mixing of the rest of the instruments in your track.
One of the most difficult bass mixing points is getting just the right amount of low frequencies in the bass, since different speaker setups tend to accentuate or minimize these frequencies--so you're looking for the average. This is why it is important to test your mix on as many speaker and headphone setups as possible, to reach the right balance.
The levels of both the drums and bass need to be at just the right range, so they mix together well. Adding compressor to the bass will give you more control over the volume of the bass. I recommend using a fast attack time, in the 10-15ms range. Don't go crazy on the compression ratio, unless you really want that quality (which works well on picked bass in some instances). The ratio of the compressor should match the estimated overall compression on the drums.
One thing I like to do is to match the room reverb in both the drums and the bass. Unless the drums were recorded in an anechoic chamber or a really well-isolated drum room, you should get a sense of the room space. Since the electric bass guitar is recorded DI (directly from the output of the bass into the mixer), it will be as dry sounding as it gets. I recommend applying subtle reverb to the mids and highs of the bass track to emulate the same spacial characteristics as on the drum track, as it will help unify the tone of these two instruments.
This drum/bass connection is extremely important to provide a solid foundation for the mixing of the rest of the instruments in your track.
One of the most difficult bass mixing points is getting just the right amount of low frequencies in the bass, since different speaker setups tend to accentuate or minimize these frequencies--so you're looking for the average. This is why it is important to test your mix on as many speaker and headphone setups as possible, to reach the right balance.
Greg Schlaepfer
Orange Tree Samples
Ultra-realistic sample libraries for Kontakt
Orange Tree Samples
Ultra-realistic sample libraries for Kontakt
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- "The" Jazz
- 4562 posts since 18 Aug, 2004 from California, United States
Regarding using bass amp/cab sims--a lot of times when bassists record in the studio, they record directly into the mixer, either from the output of their bass, or the audio output from their amp. However, using an amp/cab sim can give the bass a different tone, and in some cases (such as rock and metal) a small amount of distortion is suitable. However, when using distortion, make sure that the low bass frequencies are still audible and pure.
Greg Schlaepfer
Orange Tree Samples
Ultra-realistic sample libraries for Kontakt
Orange Tree Samples
Ultra-realistic sample libraries for Kontakt
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- KVRist
- 35 posts since 10 Jun, 2005
I know you don't want to hear this BUT, I found out the best way "for me" was simple trial and error.. Also this might sound crazy but I got on GearSlutz and found a thread that has a lot of proffesional band tracks and downloaded them to just hear the solo'd bass tracks. This helped me bigtime. You will be suprised with how "not so good" the sounds are 
) One thing I can say is that Orange Tree basses seem to fit well without doing anything.. But, I do use IK's bass amp sim and like it!! Compression is HUGE to getting it to sit well in the mix. And Like Greg said maybe mess with the eq in the 100hz area. I think one problem I have had is listening to stuff in "solo" mode. This has been a mistake for me. I would spend a hour getting this killer kick sound. Then put it in the mix and it all sucked!!! I know u have to solo stuff but I am talking about trying to get the incredible sound 1st,then trying to get it to sit in a mix. I have found out sometimes u might have to cut alot of the lows in the bass to get it right in a mix. And if u had listened to it solo'd u would have NEVER done it.. I have tried about all the bass samples/vst's and the Orange Tree stuff just does something that stands out in a mix with little eqing etc.. Maybe Greg could start a thread where all his customers could share there setups!!! That would be great. We all could learn from that.......
) One thing I can say is that Orange Tree basses seem to fit well without doing anything.. But, I do use IK's bass amp sim and like it!! Compression is HUGE to getting it to sit well in the mix. And Like Greg said maybe mess with the eq in the 100hz area. I think one problem I have had is listening to stuff in "solo" mode. This has been a mistake for me. I would spend a hour getting this killer kick sound. Then put it in the mix and it all sucked!!! I know u have to solo stuff but I am talking about trying to get the incredible sound 1st,then trying to get it to sit in a mix. I have found out sometimes u might have to cut alot of the lows in the bass to get it right in a mix. And if u had listened to it solo'd u would have NEVER done it.. I have tried about all the bass samples/vst's and the Orange Tree stuff just does something that stands out in a mix with little eqing etc.. Maybe Greg could start a thread where all his customers could share there setups!!! That would be great. We all could learn from that.......-
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1200 posts since 5 Dec, 2002 from Earth
I second that idea.rolley wrote:Maybe Greg could start a thread where all his customers could share there setups!!! That would be great. We all could learn from that.......
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- KVRian
- 1092 posts since 1 Jul, 2008
Nice post!rolley wrote:I know you don't want to hear this BUT, I found out the best way "for me" was simple trial and error.. Also this might sound crazy but I got on GearSlutz and found a thread that has a lot of proffesional band tracks and downloaded them to just hear the solo'd bass tracks. This helped me bigtime. You will be suprised with how "not so good" the sounds are
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- "The" Jazz
- 4562 posts since 18 Aug, 2004 from California, United States
Listening to solo'd bass tracks will really help in terms of giving you ideas for how the final mixed bass can sound. If you have a matching EQ, such samples would be a great source to capture an EQ snapshot and then apply it to EQ on your own track.rolley wrote:I got on GearSlutz and found a thread that has a lot of proffesional band tracks and downloaded them to just hear the solo'd bass tracks. This helped me bigtime.
Thank you! The bass I sampled for CoreBass Cherry is sounds surprisingly good even unprocessed. Incidentally, after buying that bass I went from having low self-esteem in terms of tone to enjoying a bass tone that makes anything I play sound good.rolley wrote: One thing I can say is that Orange Tree basses seem to fit well without doing anything.
Soloing the track can help, but you have to constantly go back and forth, checking the entire mix. It's like painting--you can focus in on one square inch, getting all the details perfect, but when you step back and examine your work, how does the overall composition look?rolley wrote: But, I do use IK's bass amp sim and like it!! Compression is HUGE to getting it to sit well in the mix. And Like Greg said maybe mess with the eq in the 100hz area. I think one problem I have had is listening to stuff in "solo" mode. This has been a mistake for me. I would spend a hour getting this killer kick sound. Then put it in the mix and it all sucked!!! I know u have to solo stuff but I am talking about trying to get the incredible sound 1st,then trying to get it to sit in a mix.
One thing I do when mixing is to solo each track to work on EQ. I create an exaggerated peak and move the frequency around until I find a particular overtone I want to accentuate. Once I have the frequency right, I decrease the amplitude of the peak until it is a subtle, but noticeable improvement.
Like Rolley said, don't spend too much time with the track solo'd, or else you can get distracted from the overall picture.
Good idea! I could start out by sharing some of my own setups. I'll post pictures of the settings and samples of the output (first dry, then processed).rolley wrote: Maybe Greg could start a thread where all his customers could share there setups!!! That would be great. We all could learn from that.......
Greg Schlaepfer
Orange Tree Samples
Ultra-realistic sample libraries for Kontakt
Orange Tree Samples
Ultra-realistic sample libraries for Kontakt
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- KVRAF
- 3864 posts since 29 Feb, 2004
A few more ideas :
-- more important than ANY sound tweaks is getting the phrasing right.
The exact length of a note is absolutely crucial for the groove with bass guitar- sometimes shortening a single note in a run by a few ticks can make or break the illusion
Straight quarters or eighths will always sound like Casio.
Note beginnings are mostly straight however, unless you go for a decidedly pushed or laid back feel. Only try this if you know exactly how those feels work.
-- vary the velocities a bit, in a seemingly random but still somewhat planned manner - bassists do tend to accentuate certain notes
-- Freeamp 3 is a pretty decent bass amp sim, too - experiment
-- The best commercial one has to be SVX imho
-- for a DI-style sound check out BootEQ 2, has a stellar bass department not unlike some legendary vintage units and its preamp transformer- and tube- emulation are perfect for bass. I often use this after SVX for fine tuning. One of the best EQs available anywhere - and it's free
-- I would not dial in the sound solo'ed personally, at least the kick, better the complete rhythm section should be up, there is so much interaction and psychoacoustics going on it's scary
-- as a rule try to combine thin kick and fat bass or vice versa for a start until you get a feel for it, both fat rarely works
Ymmv,
susiwong
-- more important than ANY sound tweaks is getting the phrasing right.
The exact length of a note is absolutely crucial for the groove with bass guitar- sometimes shortening a single note in a run by a few ticks can make or break the illusion
Straight quarters or eighths will always sound like Casio.
Note beginnings are mostly straight however, unless you go for a decidedly pushed or laid back feel. Only try this if you know exactly how those feels work.
-- vary the velocities a bit, in a seemingly random but still somewhat planned manner - bassists do tend to accentuate certain notes
-- Freeamp 3 is a pretty decent bass amp sim, too - experiment
-- The best commercial one has to be SVX imho
-- for a DI-style sound check out BootEQ 2, has a stellar bass department not unlike some legendary vintage units and its preamp transformer- and tube- emulation are perfect for bass. I often use this after SVX for fine tuning. One of the best EQs available anywhere - and it's free
-- I would not dial in the sound solo'ed personally, at least the kick, better the complete rhythm section should be up, there is so much interaction and psychoacoustics going on it's scary
-- as a rule try to combine thin kick and fat bass or vice versa for a start until you get a feel for it, both fat rarely works
Ymmv,
susiwong
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1200 posts since 5 Dec, 2002 from Earth
Thanks susiwong,
You've given me at least a couple of ideas to try. I really appreciate your sharing this.
I have a Ampeg SVX Uno (a freebie from IK) which I'm sure doesn't have too much from the full version, but it's something. I just downloaded BootEQ2, so I'll definitely try it on bass and I have downloaded most freebies I could find, like FreeAmp 3.
I have to wait a few months for my new DAW (Vista 64 so I can go beyond 3GB of RAM), so I won't get to try all this stuff out until then.
- eDrummist
You've given me at least a couple of ideas to try. I really appreciate your sharing this.
I have a Ampeg SVX Uno (a freebie from IK) which I'm sure doesn't have too much from the full version, but it's something. I just downloaded BootEQ2, so I'll definitely try it on bass and I have downloaded most freebies I could find, like FreeAmp 3.
I have to wait a few months for my new DAW (Vista 64 so I can go beyond 3GB of RAM), so I won't get to try all this stuff out until then.
- eDrummist
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- KVRist
- 35 posts since 10 Jun, 2005
Guys I don't want to get all mushy ,but tis nice to see people helping each other!! Seems lately every thread starts out with something good and ends up with arguing etcc, or just people not wanting to share there techniques. Greg you have been very helpful and I will continue to support Orange Tree all I can. I am looking forward to the future releases.
,but tis nice to see people helping each other!! Seems lately every thread starts out with something good and ends up with arguing etcc, or just people not wanting to share there techniques. Greg you have been very helpful and I will continue to support Orange Tree all I can. I am looking forward to the future releases.-
- "The" Jazz
- 4562 posts since 18 Aug, 2004 from California, United States
Yeah I really appreciate this, too. There are some very knowledgeable people in the community, and I'm glad we're able to help each other out.rolley wrote:Guys I don't want to get all mushy
Thank you! I have big plans for upcoming releases, and I really appreciate all the email feedback I've received with suggestions for future products.rolley wrote: Greg you have been very helpful and I will continue to support Orange Tree all I can. I am looking forward to the future releases.
Greg Schlaepfer
Orange Tree Samples
Ultra-realistic sample libraries for Kontakt
Orange Tree Samples
Ultra-realistic sample libraries for Kontakt
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- KVRer
- 15 posts since 21 Mar, 2007 from Athens, Greece
(Offtopic, I know, but couldn't resist 
) Do those plans include sampling a Les Paul?? I remember seeing that in a thread a few weeks ago and given that Strawberry plays and sounds so good (one of the very few sample-based VSTi's that I didn't regret buying), a Les Paul by Orange Tree Samples would certainly be a godsend!
) Do those plans include sampling a Les Paul?? I remember seeing that in a thread a few weeks ago and given that Strawberry plays and sounds so good (one of the very few sample-based VSTi's that I didn't regret buying), a Les Paul by Orange Tree Samples would certainly be a godsend!-
- "The" Jazz
- 4562 posts since 18 Aug, 2004 from California, United States
I'm creating a new thread to answer those two questions. Just to keep things all tidy. Yes, that must be my Swiss genes taking control again...
Greg Schlaepfer
Orange Tree Samples
Ultra-realistic sample libraries for Kontakt
Orange Tree Samples
Ultra-realistic sample libraries for Kontakt
