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KVR Forum » Samples, Sampling and Sample Libraries
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Proving use of legally bought samples
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penguinfromdeep
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:54 pm reply with quote
Wildfunk wrote:

It's more effective to take down the whole release everywhere (YouTube, SoundCloud, Beatport, ...) with the help of the DMCA Wink


Yes, but how to prove it? How to prove that the producer hasn't bought the pack he used in making the track? Sending a dmca, you still have to provide this information, otherwise they won't act. Or they will act and afterwards YOU will face serious consequences unless you can prove the illicit use of samples .
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aciddose
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:13 pm reply with quote
maybe you'd better read up on the dmca and the function of it's take-down notices.
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penguinfromdeep
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:21 pm reply with quote
me?
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Wildfunk
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:57 pm reply with quote
penguinfromdeep wrote:
Yes, but how to prove it? How to prove that the producer hasn't bought the pack he used in making the track?


Just take a look into the customer list Wink If he/she is not on the list then...

Also you can ask for a registration if someone bought your vocals and wants to release a track with them. All other tracks with the vocals are (as good as) illegal.

penguinfromdeep wrote:
Sending a dmca, you still have to provide this information, otherwise they won't act.


No, you don't have to provide any contract.

penguinfromdeep wrote:
Or they will act and afterwards YOU will face serious consequences unless you can prove the illicit use of samples.


If the musician is not on your customer list then it's his/her job to prove THAT he/she is a customer of you (which is impossible of course).
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hebb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:58 pm reply with quote
It was proven that several Vengeance sample CDs contained audio that was taken without permission from other sources. So what happened to those products? Nothing. They're still being sold.

And it's not just Vengeance. Other companies are still doing the same thing. Sometimes unintentionally - as they hire freelance "sound-designers" to create samples for them.

Most sample packs aren't even worth downloading illegally now days. I'd rather make mine.
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Wildfunk
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:27 pm reply with quote
OneBastard wrote:
How do you prove the samples came from your pack?


With watermarks for example. But this doesn't works always reliably of course.

But most guys don't even try to hide that they don't own a valid license.

Funny episode: A friend with a label got a promo track from a guy which just had played back a melody from my demosongs with the same instrument from the sample pack. Guess what - the guy was (of course) not a customer of mine Wink
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BertKoor
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:29 pm reply with quote
The developer wouldn't know...

Suppose I made a sample pack, and I clearly hear a sample turning up in a song by DJ GeeDay? So I look into my customer administration and don't find any "DJ GeeDay". Turns out that the real name of DJ GeeDay is Pat Peterson. He bought a base track of a friend called DJ Spotty (in real life Rob Robertson) and used that in his track. Neither Pat Peterson nor Rob Robertson are present in my client administration, because Rob Robertson is only 15 years old and he bought a proper license of my stuff with the Visa card of his mother Jane Doe that is listed under her business name "Jane's Hair Saloon" D'oh! Shrug
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penguinfromdeep
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:19 am reply with quote
Yeah, its tricky that's what I'm saying, not as straightforward as Wildfunk says imho. The client list don't tell everything, it could be situation exactly like you described. And I work in the sample biz too!

And you need to prove when sending dmca, at least I need to prove I'm the copyright owner of the files when I sent any take down notices ... Maybe they don't check carefully but you could face consequences if the uploader then makes counter argument.
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ouroboros
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:32 am reply with quote
BertKoor wrote:
The developer wouldn't know...

Suppose I made a sample pack, and I clearly hear a sample turning up in a song by DJ GeeDay? So I look into my customer administration and don't find any "DJ GeeDay". Turns out that the real name of DJ GeeDay is Pat Peterson. He bought a base track of a friend called DJ Spotty (in real life Rob Robertson) and used that in his track. Neither Pat Peterson nor Rob Robertson are present in my client administration, because Rob Robertson is only 15 years old and he bought a proper license of my stuff with the Visa card of his mother Jane Doe that is listed under her business name "Jane's Hair Saloon" D'oh! Shrug


wait.
Pat Robertson's a DJ?
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osiris
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:22 am reply with quote
God is the DJ. I think the example previous poster talked about is completely different. That guy cracked Kontakt and uploaded the entire software along with the samples.
You could prove it, but honestly how many people keep receipts?
And don't forget Deadmau5, who released a sample CD, then sued someone for using a sample from it.
'the drum loop and the main riff from the club-classic Faxing Berlin by Deadmau5 are available as loops in FL Studio 8. Not only that, but a little-known artist is currently being struck down by the wrath of the law for using the loop (which he assumed was Royalty-free and claims to have used not knowing it was Deadmau5's riff) in a recent release. Both the drum loop and the chords from the track, available under Melody Loops Pack in the browser and called LP_Faxing Berlin A_128bpm.ogg and LP_Faxing Berlin C_128bpm.ogg, are embedded within a host of other loops which Image Line are now claiming are not royalty-free after all and only the one-shots that come with FL are available for commercial use.'

But IL's website contradicts this:
The single-hit samples are royalty-free. This means that you can use the samples in your own compositions and songs without paying any further royalties.
However, all other downloadable songs, loops and samples are protected by copyright. If you want to use this material in your own creations, please contact the copyright owner(s) in question and ask for their permission.
Then at the bottom:
PURCHASED SAMPLES & LOOPS CONTENT

All samples are royalty-free. This means that you can use the samples in your own compositions and songs without paying any further royalties.

Confusing, no?
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Wildfunk
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:30 am reply with quote
penguinfromdeep wrote:
Yeah, its tricky that's what I'm saying, not as straightforward as Wildfunk says imho. The client list don't tell everything, it could be situation exactly like you described. And I work in the sample biz too!


The take down via DMCA is just an idea to fight piracy. This works of course not in all cases.

But if "DJ Piracy" is always present in the Beatport Top 100 with your samples and a) you're sure he isn't a customer of you and b) he doesn't reply to licensing requests then the case is clear.

So you think twice as a piracy producer.

penguinfromdeep wrote:
And you need to prove when sending dmca, at least I need to prove I'm the copyright owner of the files when I sent any take down notices ... Maybe they don't check carefully but you could face consequences if the uploader then makes counter argument.


Of course they don't check if the sample on 01:34 of a track is from your sample pack and if the artist is on your customer list Wink
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synaesthesia
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:37 am reply with quote
If the OP question is about a developer spotting a loop/phrase/wav or whatever from one of their packs and them thinking you don't own the pack... then a receipt or confirmation email should clear it up, no? I keep all mine anyway.

Not sure it's a likely scenario though.

The truth is that sofwtare and sample piracy is, for the most part, too huge in scale and too difficult to pursue for it be worthwhile for developers.

So the cheats prosper. But, if you don't get a good feeling out of being legit... well, then you're a monster and cannot be helped! HiHi
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hebb
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:36 am reply with quote
ouroboros wrote:
BertKoor wrote:
The developer wouldn't know...

Suppose I made a sample pack, and I clearly hear a sample turning up in a song by DJ GeeDay? So I look into my customer administration and don't find any "DJ GeeDay". Turns out that the real name of DJ GeeDay is Pat Peterson. He bought a base track of a friend called DJ Spotty (in real life Rob Robertson) and used that in his track. Neither Pat Peterson nor Rob Robertson are present in my client administration, because Rob Robertson is only 15 years old and he bought a proper license of my stuff with the Visa card of his mother Jane Doe that is listed under her business name "Jane's Hair Saloon" D'oh! Shrug


wait.
Pat Robertson's a DJ?


Laughing
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highkoo
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:25 am reply with quote
mgpqa1 wrote:
http://soniccontrol.tv/2012/03/11/california-federal-d istrict-court-awards-cinesamples-llc-379050-in-digital-pirac y-suit/

$379,050!
Shocked
Good for them. That shit was egregious.
jupiter8 wrote:
Prove to who and why ?

Great question. The answer blew me away.
OP, go make music.
If you are jealous of the unfair adavantage your peers are getting in what you percieve to be a competition, then just cheat more than they do, and win, like winners do. Otherwise, just have fun and do you.
BertKoor wrote:
The developer wouldn't know...

Suppose I made a sample pack, and I clearly hear a sample turning up in a song by DJ GeeDay? So I look into my customer administration and don't find any "DJ GeeDay". Turns out that the real name of DJ GeeDay is Pat Peterson. He bought a base track of a friend called DJ Spotty (in real life Rob Robertson) and used that in his track. Neither Pat Peterson nor Rob Robertson are present in my client administration, because Rob Robertson is only 15 years old and he bought a proper license of my stuff with the Visa card of his mother Jane Doe that is listed under her business name "Jane's Hair Saloon" D'oh! Shrug

Ding.
Between stuff like that, people being insanely paranoid, and people being totally haphazard, its a bit naieve to think your client lists are accurate and complete ways to identify an individual. Ive used two different sets of credentials with the same dev! Neither will bring you to me. Laughing
I have twice bought gifts with creds like that. Those are regged in my "name" on my account, but someone else uses them fulltime in their productions. I guess that is against the license techincally (?), but well like I said, haphazard.
I mean, the implication there is not only that you actually know youc customers real names and locations, but also that you know every production alias of every one of the names on your client list.
Not likely.
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aciddose
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:31 pm reply with quote
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