Business ethics

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Gonga wrote:I'm sorry I can't read this whole thread, but I feel strongly as a user of many products represented here at kvr that U-He is a great company, in ways almost too numerous to say. The way Urs participates in communications is stellar, and I would like to add my voice to the overall opinion here that it is a substantial majority of people who are extremely pleased with U-He in most if not all respects.

I have often thought that perhaps Urs has set the bar impossibly high for himself (though not his company). By that I mean he may be working too hard to communicate. I definitely don't intend that as a criticism, rather as the highest of compliments. Urs is in a class literally by himself as far as I'm concerned. But how many of us could or would put such effort into communications with their users (and everybody else, including self-styled enemies, it would seem).

Urs, for every negative commenter, rest assured there are 100 or 1000 people who understand that you are an honorable person, who makes stellar products, with support that totally stands out.

I don't think I'm alone in feeling honored to know you a bit personally here at kvr. I wonder how many regulars visit largely because of U-He.
:tu:

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It is draining to figure out heated vs. overheated in some of these discussions. Social norms just kind of break down on the internet if not everyone makes an effort to be a little more authentic than is demanded technologically. So, ultimately all any one person can realistically aspire to is just handling their end of stuff.

There was a really archetypal sort of story about this from Lawrence Lessig's Code, under the heading law.cyber of this section. I've always felt better about the interwebz after reading it. Not that there are easy answers but it's somehow just the nature of the beast.

Part of the beast is probably mindlessly promulgating cheap memes, but ....

Image)

One partial answer is good forum moderation, I think Meffy does very well. I wonder what moderators are thinking about these threads.

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EDIT: I'm removing my post, for fear of it not helping the situation.

I hope things return to normal ASAP for all involved.
Last edited by Sendy on Mon May 21, 2012 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I've been working in tech for over 14 years now and I've been on KVR for almost ten and I can say without hesitation that I can't think of anyone I've met here or elsewhere in that time that is more consistently polite, thoughtful and intelligent than Urs. And I have certainly never met anyone more willing to share techniques and ideas with his potential competitors. In fact, without his help and encouragement I don't think I would have ever even tried making my own software instruments.

I am tremendously impressed by the business Urs has built for himself solely on the strength of his considerable talent and energy. Unfortunately there are people in the world that would rather try to destroy what others have built than take the much more rewarding but difficult road of building something themselves.

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Sad thread.

Imho the problems are not caused by the devs, but by the attitude of fanboys attacking devs, when they choose to show their negative side.

We have had our share of this, and now the plague is just a bit spreading.

In the 0df thread for example, we welcomed Urs in the thread, and everybody can see that the discussion has remained pretty civil between us, or Richard from Synapse etc etc.

We also very explictly stated from the beginning that this was not to become a flame war between 0df filters synths, and non 0df filters synths, between this synth, or that synth, and we NEVER gave names ( synths, brands, etc )

This was not enough to prevent certain annoying things to happen once again, but like I said we had our share of it.

Let's put it like that, KVR will probably be a much better place again the day when fanboys will concentrate their efforts on showing their positive face, supporting products they like, than their dirtiest one, trashing and attacking products and their reps for the only reason they seem to "compete" with their favorite toys.
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That is why I keep hammering on the idea of difference.

That is, difference is only that, difference.

No hierarchy of valuation is involved..it is just that...difference.

Is it possible to think OTHER than hierarchies of difference?

Hopefully, at some point...maybe....
Barry
If a billion people believe a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing

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trimph1 wrote:Is it possible to think OTHER than hierarchies of difference?
definitely possible. unfortunately rare for some reason, around here. who would have thought aesthetic choices were a competitive sport?
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."

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Fanboys think of us developers as competitors in the marketplace. This couldn't be furthest from the truth. Behind the scenes, most of us have been, are, or will be collaborating on projects.

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Big Tick wrote:Fanboys think of us developers as competitors in the marketplace.
... and not only that: devs have to be some kind of superhuman, holy and always charming. reason is: when some people buy a license of a highly acclaimed product, they feel, they're part of the success story and thus they 'grow' in their opinion about themselves. borrowed lives, borrowed identities. this is nuts! they just don't get it: there are only either 'win win' or 'loose loose' situations. people only win, when they collaborate. there won't ever be a single 'winner'.
"It dreamed itself along"

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trimph1 wrote:That is why I keep hammering on the idea of difference.

That is, difference is only that, difference.

No hierarchy of valuation is involved..it is just that...difference.

Is it possible to think OTHER than hierarchies of difference?

Hopefully, at some point...maybe....
Big +1 :)
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77 Exclusive Soundbanks for 23 synths, 8 Sound Designers, Hours of audio Demos. The Sound you miss might be there

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Lotuzia wrote:
trimph1 wrote:That is why I keep hammering on the idea of difference.

That is, difference is only that, difference.

No hierarchy of valuation is involved..it is just that...difference.

Is it possible to think OTHER than hierarchies of difference?

Hopefully, at some point...maybe....
Big +1 :)
Derridaluhmanndeleuzung :tu: :)
"It dreamed itself along"

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I agree that different tools for different people and different uses is key, but quality will always matter to people who take their craft seriously. When craft is involved, there are always very real, qualitative (and often quantitative) differences. It's impractical not to utilise whatever available instrument fills your need, regardless of craftsmanship. And it's fine to play a child's plastic battery-powered guitar with buttons for sounds. But to insist it's just as flexible for creating great music as a Les Paul, or that musicians would prefer the toy equally if given a choice, would be absurd and irrational. Anybody who devotes their life to craftsmanship can understand this. It's a bit trickier with software tech because it's so diverse and complex, but if a developer sets out to create an instrument that's highly perfected in some musical realm as per the demands of musicians, the same way great guitar builders do, that's the same thing. I see most if not all the developers here at kvr doing this to a very great extent, and I see music-making moving forward as a result. Never before have musicians had such an incredible choice of high-quality instruments at such low prices. A single musician today, can do almost anything if they have the talent, all on a shoestring budget.
Last edited by Gonga on Wed May 23, 2012 10:26 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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mellotronaut wrote:
Lotuzia wrote:
trimph1 wrote:That is why I keep hammering on the idea of difference.

That is, difference is only that, difference.

No hierarchy of valuation is involved..it is just that...difference.

Is it possible to think OTHER than hierarchies of difference?

Hopefully, at some point...maybe....
Big +1 :)
Derridaluhmanndeleuzung :tu: :)
:lol:

Glad you are feeling better, Urs.
'All the best
..what goes around comes around..

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whyterabbyt wrote:who would have thought aesthetic choices were a competitive sport?
you're kidding right?

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