Waves Element - How to eliminate attack pops? (patches and audio included)

[UltimateOutsider]

Waves Element is one of my favorite synths for when I need to program a patch of my own, however I've never found it suitable for sounds that need a fast attack because of this one problem: There's ususally a very noticeable, unwanted pop whenever a note is triggered on patches with an amp envelope attack of less than 20-30ms.

The pop is much more noticeable with the DCO oscillator, although I don't have to dial back the Attack as much to eliminate the pops for that OSC as I do with the VCO one.

EXAMPLES:

I designed a super-simple example patch to illustrate the problem. It's a single-oscillator sine wave intended for use as a sub-bass modifier for a kick drum. I ended up having to ditch Element for another synth since I couldn't get rid of the pop without losing too much of the attack.

Here's a screenshot of the "zero attack, DCO OSC" variant. (Note, I uploaded all patches mentioned in this post to this directory.)



EDIT: KVR's in-browser audio preview thing isn't working for me. If you can't hear these clips, you can play them directly from here.

And here's how it sounds: sub_kick_dco_no_attack.wav

Here's the VCO version of the same patch. Still definitely a pop, but not as distinct: sub_kick_vco_no_attack.wav

In order to get rid of the pops on the DCO version, I had to increase Attack to 17ms: sub_kick_dco_17ms_attack.wav

And to do the same on VCO, I had to increase attack to 27ms. Completely unsuitable for my needs. sub_kick_vco_27ms_attack.wav

All the original patches and WAV files are available for download here.

Here's a zoomed-in Audacity screenshot of one of the zero-attack DCO pops:


QUESTIONS: Does anyone else experience this with Element? Is there a way to fix it?

[DJMaytag]

Increase the decay time on ENV3.

[UltimateOutsider]

Increase the decay time on ENV3.

Env 3 isn't doing anything; all modulation slots are disabled.

[DJMaytag]

Ah, I haven't used Element in forever, so I forgot about turning off modulation slots.

Next thing to try it adjusting the Shape knob, likely to the right.

[Nightpolymath]

The same issue occurs in Tal UNO and even Massive, except that Massive has a phase restart via gate to eliminate the clicks. Either bounce it to audio, and apply a fader to the initial transient; or use a transient shaper to attenuate the first few milliseconds.

[UltimateOutsider]

The same issue occurs in Tal UNO and even Massive, except that Massive has a phase restart via gate to eliminate the clicks. Either bounce it to audio, and apply a fader to the initial transient; or use a transient shaper to attenuate the first few milliseconds.

Yeah, I've struggled with this in Massive as well- I will have to experiment with the Restart Via Gate option... I figured phase issues might also explain the differences in audible results between Element's VCO and DCO oscillators.

Someone told me they use a declicker plugin to handle problems like this in other synths.

DUNE 1 seems better behaved, though. I'll always turn to it if I can't make something work in Element or Massive.

[fluffy_little_something]

I used to have Element and didn't like that, either.
One thing that often helped somewhat was adjusting the curve knobs (Shape) next to the envelopes. Usually the further you move away from linear, the worse it gets.

Sylenth is great in this respect, one can go almost to zero attack and still there is no unwanted sound

[UltimateOutsider]

For what it's worth, Waves support responded to my email and said the synth is working as designed, and pointed me to the section of the manual that talks about the difference between the VCO and DCO oscillators.

VCO selects between virtual Voltage-Controlled Oscillation and virtual Digitally Controlled Oscillation. VCO starts the oscillation at a random phase, and jitters the pitch within a contained range; DCO starts the oscillation when triggered by a note, and is more consistent

I've read the manual and already knew what the difference between the two was- and that was part of the problem: If the DCO OSC starts oscillation at every note trigger, why does it pop like when you catch a wave in the middle of an oscillation?

But anyway, their recommendation was to bounce Element to audio and fade over the pops.

But my own solution, I guess, will just be to stop using Element for anything that needs an Attack shorter than 30ms.

[fluffy_little_something]

There might be another trick, try this:
Set the filter envelope amount to the lowest value possible, like minus 10 or whatever it is on Element. And set the filter cutoff to max (in the case of a sine, which seems to be the case) and the filter envelope stages like this: min, max, max, max. Filter tracking to zero.

[simon.a.billington]

Have you ascertained whether it might be a result of the Shape control or Punch switch in the VCA section??

[UltimateOutsider]

Have you ascertained whether it might be a result of the Shape control or Punch switch in the VCA section??

I didn't mention it in my original post, but adjusting the shape knob had undesirable results in either direction. Either it wouldn't get rid of the pop, or it might make the pop less audible but also alter the sound of the patch negatively.

Also, the Punch button made things much worse- in fact out of the dozens of patches I've created for Element, I can't remember a single case where I ended up using the Punch parameter. It was always too extreme and/or poppy.

[Andywanders]

Gee, I never noticed this before.

I just tried recreating your patch (with the sine wave) in Synth 1 x64 and it was fine - no pops.

Strike 1 for waves.

[lfm]

I also found this to be a general failure with basically any preset in Element.
Not even increasing attack eliminate it completely.

I ran Sine Piano and Keys with Ease presets and there were these pops too.
Drag all faders down on VCA and all you get is pops.

It should never try to emulate free running oscillator, but always start with zero crossing.

And I wonder if VCO/DCO are shifted - or meant to say "VCO" button meaning shift to VCO - not that it's running as text say. Pop issues are much worse if button say DCO.

So Element is poor design, if this is by design.
I think they are just evasive in their answers - not having to deal with it.

[Andy Gone]

This is obviously unwanted thing. I asked Waves tech support too, and they said they are aware of the issue and looking into it. They promised to come back to me when they get to a conclusion. Hopefully this gets sorted out fast.

[UltimateOutsider]

I really love Element if not for that problem.

In the mean time I've tested out four other synths to see how they behaved:

• DUNE 1 - This worked well enough out of the gate that I'm using it instead of Element in a track I'm wrapping up right now.
• Massive - As some have suggested, Massive's "Phase Block" in the OSC tab lets you adjust the phase starting point for each oscillator, eliminating the pops. (Wish I had realized this years ago when I first started using Massive!)
• Sylenth1 - Each OSC has a Phase knob with the same purpose as Massive's phase block; you get to pick the phase start point, so can dial in a pop-less patch.
• Retrologue - No way that I could see to adjust OSC phase like Massive or Sylenth1. Although the pops were not as extreme as you get in Element, they were audible- but mostly addressable with a 2-3ms attack.