KVR Audio

poshook · Post by **poshook** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:21 pm

Just bought Spitfire Albion One, download and install. In 30 minutes I found that it is not what I expected.
However there is no way to refund even no resale possibility.
Is that legal?

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:29 pm

** Disclaimer ** I am not a lawyer.

Is it legal? Yes.

poshook · Post by **poshook** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:34 pm

wagtunes wrote:** Disclaimer ** I am not a lawyer.

Is it legal? Yes.

However it is strange that you can not try before buy, can not refund and can not resale. It is not WIN - WIN relationship

mcbpete · Post by **mcbpete** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:39 pm

poshook wrote:Is that legal?

Yep, this is their EULA I'm afraid:

12. Refunds. Due to the nature of downloadable products and online services, no refunds are normally available for Products which have already been downloaded. Any refund request will be considered in our sole discretion and our decision will be final. Nothing herein affects your statutory rights.

egbert101 · Post by **egbert101** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:47 pm

poshook · Post by **poshook** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:52 pm

egbert101 wrote:
poshook wrote:Just bought Spitfire Albion One, download and install. In 30 minutes I found that it is not what I expected.
However there is no way to refund even no resale possibility.
Is that legal?
Send them an email explaining you didn't get what you expected. Maybe they will be nice as it's holiday season and give you a refund.

I tried...but no success

Ghostwave · Post by **Ghostwave** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:53 pm

poshook · Post by **poshook** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:59 pm

mcbpete wrote:
poshook wrote:Is that legal?
Yep, this is their EULA I'm afraid:

12. Refunds. Due to the nature of downloadable products and online services, no refunds are normally available for Products which have already been downloaded. Any refund request will be considered in our sole discretion and our decision will be final. Nothing herein affects your statutory rights.

That is right. But this is definitely not WIN-WIN situation. NFR is about developer decision, there is no "downloadable products nature". THis is not just Spitfire but almost all orchestral library developers. I do not understand the reason why software libraries use different rules than VST plugins. To me it is exactly the same as plugins. THere is no difference between e.g. VST EQ plugin and software library except the data size.

anomandaris1 · Post by **anomandaris1** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:27 pm

What did you expected to buy? Didn't you read the manual or watched demo videos?

There is a try sound for selected sample libraries - I've used it in the past, you can demo online the sounds.

https://www.bestservice.com/try-sound.html#

There is no way for developer to know that you deleted the library, that's why there are no refunds.

No_Use · Post by **No_Use** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:37 pm

mcbpete wrote:
poshook wrote:Is that legal?
Yep, this is their EULA I'm afraid:

12. Refunds. Due to the nature of downloadable products and online services, no refunds are normally available for Products which have already been downloaded. Any refund request will be considered in our sole discretion and our decision will be final. Nothing herein affects your statutory rights.

The sole fact that something is stated in the EULA doesn't automatically mean it's 'legal' (ie comply to current laws) I'd say.
There's this often cited EU court rule about reselling software, has been discussed here on KVR also several times in the past iirc.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120 ... cant.shtml

ATN69 · Post by **ATN69** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:37 pm

There is no way for developer to know that you deleted the library, that's why there are no refunds.

I believe you are right but it doesn't make any sense. As an example, UVI have sounds for Falcon and UVI Workstation that comes with serial numbers. I don't see why other libraries on the market could not do the same

poshook · Post by **poshook** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:38 pm

anomandaris1 wrote:What did you expected to buy? Didn't you read the manual or watched demo videos?

There is a try sound for selected sample libraries - I've used it in the past, you can demo online the sounds.

https://www.bestservice.com/try-sound.html#

There is no way for developer to know that you deleted the library, that's why there are no refunds.

Spitfire has no try-sound.
There is a serial number with activation so developer can force for deactivation before refund or transfer. Developers of plugins also do not know that I delete the plugin. But that sounds like all customers are potential crooks.

Elektronisch · Post by **Elektronisch** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:01 pm

mcbpete wrote:
poshook wrote:Is that legal?
Yep, this is their EULA I'm afraid:

12. Refunds. Due to the nature of downloadable products and online services, no refunds are normally available for Products which have already been downloaded. Any refund request will be considered in our sole discretion and our decision will be final. Nothing herein affects your statutory rights.

I agree that its due to the nature not refundable, but with Kontakt libraries they dont have this kind of nature, because its not like presets where you can download and just keep it. Its a licence wich once rewoked means you cannot use it.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:07 pm

I wonder what is supposed to be a Win - Win situation with a resale. I mean, yeah... both of the customers win, but, the company doesn't win anything. Actually, it loses.

But, the real reason has already been stated, like with sample packs, there's no way to make sure one side didn't uninstall the product. Same with plugins with serial number though, but, those mostly only allow 1 resale. Which, if you take it strictly, is "illegal" too. I think if the customer claims he cares about "business ethics" though, i think he also should take HIS customer ethics serious, otherwise the nice company he bought so much software from could one day be gone forever.

poshook · Post by **poshook** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:28 pm

chk071 wrote:I wonder what is supposed to be a Win - Win situation with a resale. I mean, yeah... both of the customers win, but, the company doesn't win anything. Actually, it loses.

But, the real reason has already been stated, like with sample packs, there's no way to make sure one side didn't uninstall the product. Same with plugins with serial number though, but, those mostly only allow 1 resale. Which, if you take it strictly, is "illegal" too. I think if the customer claims he cares about "business ethics" though, i think he also should take HIS customer ethics serious, otherwise the nice company he bought so much software from could one day be gone forever.

For me the resale is not important issue. It is just a secondary part of the topic. I see what you wrote. But current situation is that some companies sell "promises" without possibility to try to prevent their business from potential harm of malicious customers. It is like buying dress without trying with the impossibility to refund.

No demo, refund and even NFR of some orchestral libraries - is that legal?