So, we are pretty far along here now. There is so much stuff to choose from. Most of the software now sounds pretty good, just slightly different flavors and interfaces. I've been using modeling since the original POD, which at the time I didn't really know was a amp modeler. Now I'm here with so many choices between hardware and software.
After using pretty much all the free and payware amps I've really started to realize that they just sound like distortion pedals being run into a cab sim. If I run a distortion stomp pedal tube or non tube into a cab sim or impulse it sounds similar if not better than the amp modeler software. Now this got me thinking, why not just buy one of those Radial tonebone pedals and run it into an impulse. It would be a legit tube distortion too. It is simple, eats no CPU and could be used live or to record with.
I guess after trying all this software I'm just at a loss. I know people seem to hate Line 6, but with impulses, most of their amps sound as good if not better than other software out there. I sold off my TH1 and Amplitube. Have Guitar Rig and POD Farm. Tried out the freebies. Everything is very similar, I actually like the Pod farm using recabinet the best out of any of them. But I think the pedal solution would probably sound better, has anybody tried one of the tonebone or those blackstar pedals?
Next though, I was playing one of those Blackstar 5 watt heads last night. Sounded pretty good into the blackstar cabs. I then plugged into a Mesa 2x12 and this thing cranks. It seems like it would be ideal to mic up and record since it breaks up at low volumes. It also just seemed like it was more fun to play a real amp.
I guess one turn off with the amp sims for me is that you have loads of amps in there that all sound decent but nothing really seems to bring that smile to my face like that little 5 watt head did last night. I mean, who the heck needs 100 different amps? In the end, this would almost hinder your ability to record because of too many choices and the continuous search for that tone.
Oh and as far as the Axe FX, I haven't heard any clips that sound any better than what I can get with the POD and impulses. Why is this thing so damn expensive? I think people go to it thinking it is going to give them some miracle tone because they haven't been able to dial in a good tone with the other software stuff when in reality it isn't going to sound any better. Maybe it is a placebo effect.
Sorry for rambling but I'm just looking for other people's thoughts. Is anybody else where I'm at?
Amp modelers vs amps vs preamps vs pedals
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- KVRian
- 836 posts since 12 Aug, 2005
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- KVRist
- 438 posts since 24 Feb, 2005 from Franklin, TN USA
As far as getting an electric guitar tone goes I have come to the conclusion that whatever works, works. Many guitarists obsess excessively over their tone. I became much less picky over the years. I get an idea for a guitar sound in my head,dial up a sound with an appropriate ampsim/IR combination and record a dry track. When it comes time to mix 9 times out of 10 I will use the same ampsim/IR combiation with some minor tweaks.
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- KVRAF
- 3864 posts since 29 Feb, 2004
There are as many answers as there are guitar players, a lot depends on style and workflow, but in the end Mudcat007 is right, whatever works ...
Being a hopeless tone freak though I'm constantly experimenting to improve my tones, here are some of my personal findings, ymmv.
Keep in mind I'm going for classic rock, blues and country tones, mostly vintage inspired.
-- for pure tone quality nothing beats a good, miked tube amp, period.
Next are real tube preamps (MESA Studio, Marshall JMP-1, Soldano etc.), then software sims, hardware sims and finally other methods like pedal/impulse.
-- software sims offer giant workflow advantages but also potential latency problems, CPU hogging and, arguably, the need for geeky tweaking to make them sound good. You'll need a good hi-Z DI (WavesPRS here).
-- HW sims, atm I don't see anything that compares favourably to either SW sims or tube preamps, possible exception being AxeFX which I haven't yet tested.
-- So for all the occasions where miking is not an option I have developed a hybrid workflow that gives me the best of both tube- and SW sim worlds and avoids most of the pitfalls.
Description here, some details might have changed :
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=239997
Lots of others have offered cool ideas there, too.
-- In a nutshell I typically have 3 groups per guitar track in Cubase, 1 for tube pre, 1 for SW sim and 1 for the mix of the two which also hosts most FX.
Sounds geeky, but once it's setup it's really easy, quick and intuitive. And the options are endless.
-- Your mileage will and should vary, I only wanted to offer a few ideas
Most of all, have fun and don't forget to actually play that plank !
Cheers,
susiwong
Being a hopeless tone freak though I'm constantly experimenting to improve my tones, here are some of my personal findings, ymmv.
Keep in mind I'm going for classic rock, blues and country tones, mostly vintage inspired.
-- for pure tone quality nothing beats a good, miked tube amp, period.
Next are real tube preamps (MESA Studio, Marshall JMP-1, Soldano etc.), then software sims, hardware sims and finally other methods like pedal/impulse.
-- software sims offer giant workflow advantages but also potential latency problems, CPU hogging and, arguably, the need for geeky tweaking to make them sound good. You'll need a good hi-Z DI (WavesPRS here).
-- HW sims, atm I don't see anything that compares favourably to either SW sims or tube preamps, possible exception being AxeFX which I haven't yet tested.
-- So for all the occasions where miking is not an option I have developed a hybrid workflow that gives me the best of both tube- and SW sim worlds and avoids most of the pitfalls.
Description here, some details might have changed :
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=239997
Lots of others have offered cool ideas there, too.
-- In a nutshell I typically have 3 groups per guitar track in Cubase, 1 for tube pre, 1 for SW sim and 1 for the mix of the two which also hosts most FX.
Sounds geeky, but once it's setup it's really easy, quick and intuitive. And the options are endless.
-- Your mileage will and should vary, I only wanted to offer a few ideas
Most of all, have fun and don't forget to actually play that plank !
Cheers,
susiwong
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- KVRAF
- 2342 posts since 3 Sep, 2005 from Outer Bongolia
This kind of setup (hardware pre-amp or pedal into cab sim) does work great, but then again, there still isn't that much difference from a pure software setup, which proves that it is the cab simulation part that still has the most potential for further improvement.monkeymanx wrote:... Now this got me thinking, why not just buy one of those Radial tonebone pedals and run it into an impulse. It would be a legit tube distortion too. It is simple, eats no CPU and could be used live or to record with.
With the lighter OD that I use I can often get an amp sim (esp. ReValver MK III) to sound so close to a hardware pre-amp into the same cab IR that I cannot tell the difference in an A/B test....now, where there is definate advantage for the hardware/software hybrid, in some cases anyway, is with heavier distortion where the software amp sims sometimes have very audible aliasing/digital distortion...you won't have that with a hardware preamp/pedal into a software cab sim if your levels are set right. Of course, as computers get more powerful, and higher sampling rates become more practical, then even this difference will fade.
Bottom line: much more development in cab sim tech. needed. I know AcmeBarGig has some interesting things going on there, hopefully others do too!
Also missing is the sympathetic string vibration that you get by playing in a room with a live amp - if you track with headphones or low monitor levels, anyway. Things like the Fernandes Sustainor system and also the Sustainiac (I really like the idea of Sustainiac C...where it has a silent transducer clamped onto the headstock) can go a long way to giving you that killer live amp vibe. I haven't tried any of the software feedback sims, but it at least seems possible that this could be emulated somewhat...this is another area that really needs more development!!
Most sims also lack that gooey amp compression. Most (maybe all) VST compressors even lack that gooey feel, so, here again ...more development needed. That reminds me of another option...use a killer hardware compressor into your audio interface, then into amp/cab sim.
Eventually someone will bring it all together in the ultimate analog/digital, hardware/software, killer tone at any volume level - anywhere, any time - setup, and that will be the greatest advance in the electric guitar since the Fender Bassman!
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 836 posts since 12 Aug, 2005
I think for me, the biggest step that made the software amps sound better was the introduction of the cab impulses.
I think I'm just gonna bit the bullet and buy that Blackstar HT-5 head and a mesa 2x12 cab. It's more fun to play for me too. I'm really liking these mini heads. I may pick up a krank rev jr. They really aren't to expensive in the used market either. Also, I don't have to pay a license transfer fee if I want to sell it later
I guess it just comes down to, whatever makes you happy and gets you where you need to be.
I think I'm just gonna bit the bullet and buy that Blackstar HT-5 head and a mesa 2x12 cab. It's more fun to play for me too. I'm really liking these mini heads. I may pick up a krank rev jr. They really aren't to expensive in the used market either. Also, I don't have to pay a license transfer fee if I want to sell it later
I guess it just comes down to, whatever makes you happy and gets you where you need to be.
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- KVRAF
- 3864 posts since 29 Feb, 2004
Lots of good points, couldn't agree more, maybe except for the 1st paragraph.guitarzan wrote:This kind of setup (hardware pre-amp or pedal into cab sim) does work great, but then again, there still isn't that much difference from a pure software setup, which proves that it is the cab simulation part that still has the most potential for further improvement.
With the lighter OD that I use I can often get an amp sim (esp. ReValver MK III) to sound so close to a hardware pre-amp into the same cab IR that I cannot tell the difference in an A/B test....now, where there is definate advantage for the hardware/software hybrid, in some cases anyway, is with heavier distortion where the software amp sims sometimes have very audible aliasing/digital distortion...you won't have that with a hardware preamp/pedal into a software cab sim if your levels are set right. Of course, as computers get more powerful, and higher sampling rates become more practical, then even this difference will fade.
Bottom line: much more development in cab sim tech. needed. I know AcmeBarGig has some interesting things going on there, hopefully others do too!
Also missing is the sympathetic string vibration that you get by playing in a room with a live amp - if you track with headphones or low monitor levels, anyway. Things like the Fernandes Sustainor system and also the Sustainiac (I really like the idea of Sustainiac C...where it has a silent transducer clamped onto the headstock) can go a long way to giving you that killer live amp vibe. I haven't tried any of the software feedback sims, but it at least seems possible that this could be emulated somewhat...this is another area that really needs more development!!
Most sims also lack that gooey amp compression. Most (maybe all) VST compressors even lack that gooey feel, so, here again ...more development needed. That reminds me of another option...use a killer hardware compressor into your audio interface, then into amp/cab sim.
Eventually someone will bring it all together in the ultimate analog/digital, hardware/software, killer tone at any volume level - anywhere, any time - setup, and that will be the greatest advance in the electric guitar since the Fender Bassman!
The "compressed goo"
part is what I'm currently toying around with most.Goal: Getting a reasonably authentic "Twin played loudbut still clean" tone and feel with software.
Some things I've found helpful, partially already mentioned :
-- Opto style compression in front as well as after the ampsim while tracking can go a long way in improving the feel, during mixdown you can safely reduce/remove the compression again, it's simply a "helper", not necessarily needed sonically per se.
-- a tiny little bit of saturation (this side of perceivable distortion) can be quite cool
-- of course louder volume during tracking goes a long way towards feeling good for many players
-- some more ideas in my link above
Ymmv,
susiwong
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- KVRAF
- 20931 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California
The tube Tonebone pedals wouldn't be too bad for this application but they don't respond like a real tube amp does. You'd have better luck with one of the Wampler pedals, all of which have crazy response (they're actually too responsive for me when used in front of a responsive tube amp) and thus would sound less static direct in. The Keeley Compressor, though not a distortion pedal, provides a great, amp-like response, as well.
One of the best guitar tones I've ever gotten in my life is from the Tech 21 British pedal direct in. No joke! It really nails that clean yet sustained Dumble tone that is so obscenely hard to get even with a great tube amp. The problem is the response is terrible and it isn't at all fun to play. The Zendrive is the same way. To me, the response is even more important than the tone (I want every amp to feel like a Super Reverb on 7) so this solution ultimately didn't work out for me.
Agreed on the Axe FX. Poor response and lackluster tones. The Gear Pages members have led me wrong nearly every time I've listened to them and the Axe FX was their crowning achievement.
One of the best guitar tones I've ever gotten in my life is from the Tech 21 British pedal direct in. No joke! It really nails that clean yet sustained Dumble tone that is so obscenely hard to get even with a great tube amp. The problem is the response is terrible and it isn't at all fun to play. The Zendrive is the same way. To me, the response is even more important than the tone (I want every amp to feel like a Super Reverb on 7) so this solution ultimately didn't work out for me.
Agreed on the Axe FX. Poor response and lackluster tones. The Gear Pages members have led me wrong nearly every time I've listened to them and the Axe FX was their crowning achievement.
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- KVRAF
- 2342 posts since 3 Sep, 2005 from Outer Bongolia
Hey Uncle E, how about the Keeley compressor into the Tech21 British pedal or vice-versa? From your descriptions that seems like it might be a winning combo! If you still have all that stuff on hand give it a try and let us know!Uncle E wrote:The tube Tonebone pedals wouldn't be too bad for this application but they don't respond like a real tube amp does. You'd have better luck with one of the Wampler pedals, all of which have crazy response (they're actually too responsive for me when used in front of a responsive tube amp) and thus would sound less static direct in. The Keeley Compressor, though not a distortion pedal, provides a great, amp-like response, as well.
One of the best guitar tones I've ever gotten in my life is from the Tech 21 British pedal direct in. No joke! It really nails that clean yet sustained Dumble tone that is so obscenely hard to get even with a great tube amp. The problem is the response is terrible and it isn't at all fun to play. The Zendrive is the same way. To me, the response is even more important than the tone (I want every amp to feel like a Super Reverb on 7) so this solution ultimately didn't work out for me.
Agreed on the Axe FX. Poor response and lackluster tones. The Gear Pages members have led me wrong nearly every time I've listened to them and the Axe FX was their crowning achievement.
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- KVRAF
- 20931 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California
Someone bought my Keeley Compressor. I still miss it. 
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 836 posts since 12 Aug, 2005
Well I guess the best unmiked solution would be an actual amp head through a hotplate(or something like it) into the computer and into an impulse. Actually that should be pretty damn close, but those hotplates are fairly expensive but useful for many applications, like achieving a high volume tone at low volumes.
I still don't understand the axe fx. Maybe as far as a "hardware" amp modeler it sounds better because it can actually load impulses. Like, that is why it sounds better than a POD or one of those Boss modelers. But once you add a speaker impulse to the POD, it sounds similar if not better or the same.
I still don't understand the axe fx. Maybe as far as a "hardware" amp modeler it sounds better because it can actually load impulses. Like, that is why it sounds better than a POD or one of those Boss modelers. But once you add a speaker impulse to the POD, it sounds similar if not better or the same.
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- KVRAF
- 2342 posts since 3 Sep, 2005 from Outer Bongolia
Well, I've tried that, sort of...I had all four Hughes & Kettner recording amps, and I had a few tube pre's into the old ADA Ampulator, plus I've used various pre/power amp combos attenuated with a Weber MASS then into cab IRs and they all feel and sound a lot like a good software amp sim into the same IR...minus any aliasing, like I said before. IRs work great, but a single IR with no further processing is way too static...a cab sags and blooms...compresses and limits...shivers, shakes, barks, and farts....they are a very animated thing. Those are the areas that ABG is working on with their Cab Enhancer line. There are much more advanced variants in Beta.monkeymanx wrote:Well I guess the best unmiked solution would be an actual amp head through a hotplate(or something like it) into the computer and into an impulse. Actually that should be pretty damn close, but those hotplates are fairly expensive but useful for many applications, like achieving a high volume tone at low volumes.
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- KVRAF
- 3864 posts since 29 Feb, 2004
guitarzan, very interesting !guitarzan wrote:Well, I've tried that, sort of...I had all four Hughes & Kettner recording amps, and I had a few tube pre's into the old ADA Ampulator, plus I've used various pre/power amp combos attenuated with a Weber MASS then into cab IRs and they all feel and sound a lot like a good software amp sim into the same IR...minus any aliasing, like I said before. IRs work great, but a single IR with no further processing is way too static...a cab sags and blooms...compresses and limits...shivers, shakes, barks, and farts....they are a very animated thing. Those are the areas that ABG is working on with their Cab Enhancer line. There are much more advanced variants in Beta.monkeymanx wrote:Well I guess the best unmiked solution would be an actual amp head through a hotplate(or something like it) into the computer and into an impulse. Actually that should be pretty damn close, but those hotplates are fairly expensive but useful for many applications, like achieving a high volume tone at low volumes.
Could you please post your experience with the Ampulator and the Blues Master ?
Would it be worth hunting one of them down ?
I'm pretty happy with the quality and range of sounds I get from my MESA Studio, JMP-1 and SP-77, the only thing I'm missing is the "bigness", "3D" and dynamic reaction you get from a good tube power stage, especially for clean to semi clean tones.
My experience with power soaks has been mixed at best, the Marshall SE-100 sounds flat and brittle to my ears, the (1st series) Palmer was not much better and while I kinda liked the Rocktron Juice Extractor the acoustical noise it generated (a transformer or coil resonating) was intolerable. How would you rate the Weber ?
I have most of the classic power amps at my disposal, 4x6L6, 2xEL34, 4xEL84 and 2x6V6, unfortunately noise is most often a problem so I rarely can mike them up properly.
Sorry for the many questions, but none of those gizmos is available to me for demo purposes no matter what, it would have to be a blind buy.
Thanks in advance,
susiwong
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- KVRian
- 1305 posts since 30 Jan, 2004
Hey, Susi,
What were you saying in some other thread (same subject but sorry - can't find it now) about a Toneport being too hot and brittle for a hot pickup?
I am thinking of getting one but I've got EMG's and I'm worried that it won't work well for me...
- Paul
What were you saying in some other thread (same subject but sorry - can't find it now) about a Toneport being too hot and brittle for a hot pickup?
I am thinking of getting one but I've got EMG's and I'm worried that it won't work well for me...
- Paul
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- KVRAF
- 3864 posts since 29 Feb, 2004
Hi Paul,
that was about the Vox TonelabSE, not about the Toneport.
Vintage PUs worked well, anything louder - annoying high pitched clipping like tearing paper. Not dependent on any setting, tried various tubes and two other units, eventually it had to go.
While the Pod 2.0 didn't have those nasty overtones it reacted with "overcompression" to loud input, meaning it didn't translate the guitar's volume settings (above say 7) anymore, only getting denser and "constipated" for lack of a better explanation.
So I'd say try before you buy, a Toneport is easy to find for demo, or order one with money back.
Ymmv,
susiwong
that was about the Vox TonelabSE, not about the Toneport.
Vintage PUs worked well, anything louder - annoying high pitched clipping like tearing paper. Not dependent on any setting, tried various tubes and two other units, eventually it had to go.
While the Pod 2.0 didn't have those nasty overtones it reacted with "overcompression" to loud input, meaning it didn't translate the guitar's volume settings (above say 7) anymore, only getting denser and "constipated" for lack of a better explanation.
So I'd say try before you buy, a Toneport is easy to find for demo, or order one with money back.
Ymmv,
susiwong
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- KVRAF
- 20931 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California
This is a GREAT thread! You guys are talking about all the things I love or want!
btw, have you guys checked out the Nebula cabinet IR's yet?
My best experience DI'ing was with a '65 Bassman into a Groove Tubes Speaker Emulator. There was something about that combination that really brought out the best of both devices, such as the darkness of the amp taming the DI sizzle. Also, the fact that the amp mainly had power tube saturation and very little preamp tube saturation made for a great recorded tone.susiwong wrote:My experience with power soaks has been mixed at best, the Marshall SE-100 sounds flat and brittle to my ears, the (1st series) Palmer was not much better and while I kinda liked the Rocktron Juice Extractor the acoustical noise it generated (a transformer or coil resonating) was intolerable.
btw, have you guys checked out the Nebula cabinet IR's yet?