I was reading thru "Moonlight in Vermont" which has a lovely cadence: ii7 bIIMaj9 I
I recognized this tritone sub and thought about this term a bit.
Is there something inherently functional in that tri-tone relationship between the bII and the V, or is it someone's way of looking at it (looking at it as a dominant-esque function)?
The term itself strikes me as a bit.... what's the word.... maybe 'pretentious' sounding...
Tritone Substitution
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- KVRian
- 1084 posts since 12 Sep, 2008 from Your basement
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- KVRAF
- 2217 posts since 15 Jul, 2003
the tritone 'functionally' shares 2 notes with the Vdom7; the 3 and the 7 of the Vdom7 are the 7 and the 3 of the tritone substitution
it's all so clever
it's also very clever on the cycle of fifths as the tritone lines up directly across from the V on the wheel.
kind of a slinky sound, eh?
it's all so clever
it's also very clever on the cycle of fifths as the tritone lines up directly across from the V on the wheel.
kind of a slinky sound, eh?
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1084 posts since 12 Sep, 2008 from Your basement
Very slinky resolution...wrench45us wrote:the tritone 'functionally' shares 2 notes with the Vdom7; the 3 and the 7 of the Vdom7 are the 7 and the 3 of the tritone substitution
it's all so clever
it's also very clever on the cycle of fifths as the tritone lines up directly across from the V on the wheel.
kind of a slinky sound, eh?
So really the substituted harmony is itself a dominant seventh chord? How does the voiceleading work? Does the third of the bII7 resolve down to the third of the I and the seventh of the sub resolve up to the root of the I?
I suppose the seventh of the bII could just sit there and be the Maj 7th of the I, right?
Anyway, if the voiceleading of the common tones works the same as the V7, then yeah, it's truly a dominant variation.
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- KVRist
- 211 posts since 28 Apr, 2009 from Ft. Lauderdale, FL
I don't know if I would play a major chord on the bII but I'm not familiar with that tune so don't take my word for it. I do know a lot of chord changes in real books are wrong.
Yes, it is "inherently functional." I like that term. That someone's way of looking at it is Barry Harris. Of course lots of other jazz and classical greats looked at music this way also. This is how Barry explains it.
In the beginning God created the world. He equates this to the chromatic scale. Then, God created man and woman. He equates this to the 2 whole tone scales. Then, man and woman got together and made babies. He equates this to the 3 diminished seventh chords. How do we know the 3 diminished chords are brothers and sisters? You look at the DNA. All diminished seventh chords contain 2 tritones, one from each of the two whole tone scales.
Barry uses diminished 7 for dominant function. If you take a dim7 chord and lower one note one half step, you will get a dominant 7th chord. So, instead of just having a bII substitution for V, you also now have dominants available on the III and the bVI. You can play dominants on all of them for a nice moving sound. You can also do this using dominant 7b5 chords. This will really sound like our beloved Messaien. Try it; I think you will like it a lot.
Yes, it is "inherently functional." I like that term. That someone's way of looking at it is Barry Harris. Of course lots of other jazz and classical greats looked at music this way also. This is how Barry explains it.
In the beginning God created the world. He equates this to the chromatic scale. Then, God created man and woman. He equates this to the 2 whole tone scales. Then, man and woman got together and made babies. He equates this to the 3 diminished seventh chords. How do we know the 3 diminished chords are brothers and sisters? You look at the DNA. All diminished seventh chords contain 2 tritones, one from each of the two whole tone scales.
Barry uses diminished 7 for dominant function. If you take a dim7 chord and lower one note one half step, you will get a dominant 7th chord. So, instead of just having a bII substitution for V, you also now have dominants available on the III and the bVI. You can play dominants on all of them for a nice moving sound. You can also do this using dominant 7b5 chords. This will really sound like our beloved Messaien. Try it; I think you will like it a lot.
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- KVRAF
- 2217 posts since 15 Jul, 2003
I think that is the conventional view, the 7th definitely wants to resolve.Does the third of the bII7 resolve down to the third of the I and the seventh of the sub resolve up to the root of the I?
One of my favorite theory books is Bert Ligon's 'Connecting Chords to Linear Harmony' and the basic premise of that book is in the common ii V7 I chord progression the 7ths lead/resolve to the next chord's 3rd. One can wander in bebop/chromatic fashion within certain bounds but as long as at the end of one bar leads to the chord chage in the next bar the listener is drawn along.
so in dm7 the C of that chord goes to the B of the G7 and the F of that chord drop to the E of the C chord
The tritone substitution sort of short circuits that -- which may be one reason it has that small surprise factor.
My slow plod through theory has just arrived at dim chords (as the great rotary switches) so the psenior's perspective on dim/dim7 chords is an expansion once again.
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- KVRist
- 211 posts since 28 Apr, 2009 from Ft. Lauderdale, FL
I also like the Bert Ligon book. Barry does the same things mentioned in there. I think Bert acutally credits Barry for some of the material. If you were to analyze bebop solos by say, Bud Powell, you'd find that a lot of his lines resolve to the 3rd of each chord as it occurs. There is a book called "Talk Jazz" by Roni Ben Hur that teaches you the rules for playing these types of lines.