Amplitude & GuitarRig Vs. Vamp2 & Pod2

[Hink]

the problem is that if we are into not sounding all that bad, amp sim are cheaper, easier to use, and more convenient. I agree for excellent takes miking a good amp is better, but I m not sure if the deal of having custom brake + custom hp or isobox is really that better in term of sound quality and fidelity to the guitarist sound.

I think this is indicative of the confusion that seems to infect these discussions.

The way I see it is that there are two disparate angles to approach the subject from, and the opt-heard arguments relating to this subject are mostly (IMO) due to a clash of the two perspectives.

The perspectives are:

1. I want a pretty good guitar sound. I can't record an amp at full tilt because of volume issues (neighbours). I want my guitar to sound a bit like ACDC/Slayer/Clapton/Hendrix/Nirvana/Whatever. So long as my guitar sounds pretty good, I'm happy.

2. I have volume issues when recording, but I know exactly how my guitar should sound. It should sound like it does when I plug my Crapocaster Deluxe into my vintage PooMaster 1000 head and 6x12, rabbit-skin cab. I accept that other people might not share my taste, but I know what my guitar should sound like.

Clearly those who approach the subject from perspective 1 would be well served by software, whereas perspective 2 folk should consider an attenuator or maybe iso-box.

could it not be said that the person in perspective 2 is being less than open minded and placing silly restrictions on themselves that could stifle some creativity they might not even be aware they possess?...If you can mic a cab and you do want your tone the way you like it that's great...but then once you get that rig set-up your cost is done for the most part...so what's wrong with adding another option like a sim as well? As I see it 1 + 2 is better than just 1 or 2. I'm not sure how you use the word "desperate", in this case 1 + 2 = infinity....which is far from desperate...

[guitarzan]

The perspectives are:

1. I want a pretty good guitar sound. I can't record an amp at full tilt because of volume issues (neighbours). I want my guitar to sound a bit like ACDC/Slayer/Clapton/Hendrix/Nirvana/Whatever. So long as my guitar sounds pretty good, I'm happy.

That's really not what I'm saying, though. I'm saying that I've got attenuator's, special speakers, special low power amps, tube recording preamps, etc. etc., and I'm getting THE best line level tone I've ever gotten....from a bunch of free VST's in energyXT!!

I don't think I'd be in this spot if I hadn't spent so many hours/days/years tweaking and listening critically to all that other stuff, but still...here I am!

[Sascha Franck]

That's really not what I'm saying, though. I'm saying that I've got attenuator's, special speakers, special low power amps, tube recording preamps, etc. etc., and I'm getting THE best line level tone I've ever gotten....from a bunch of free VST's in energyXT!!

Yeah, I'm pretty much in the same situation (apart from the fact that I'm using GR2 as well).

I don't think I'd be in this spot if I hadn't spent so many hours/days/years tweaking and listening critically to all that other stuff, but still...here I am!

See, you're bringing up a *very* important point here.
The more experienced tweakers among us will be able to dial in some at least useable tones using whatever halfway suitable equipment.
Of course, with, say, a real Rectifier, a quality instrument and a "loud volume license" you usually don't have to tweak all that much. But software seems to require that.

On the other hand, if you add to this that recording said Rectifier would require quite some efforts and tweakings, one might start to understand why it still requires some tweaking with software as well. Unfortunately (and I noticed this with pretty much all programmable amp sims, be it soft- or hardware), both the presets and default settings (when you call up an amp) usually aren't suitable to get you to a proper recording. They're often done to impress people while fooling around with headphones in a shop. No backings, no band, so it's all stuffed with overdrive (usually you need way less) and effects.
That's why tweaking is required.

As far as my own recent experience goes: When I got GR2, I (obviously) scrolled through the presets... been less than impressed, to say the least. Of course, some funny sounds there, but I allready knew I'd *never* use *any* of them either for live stuff or in a recording situation.
Had to start quite some intensive tweaking to get some useful sounds out of it. Seems to work...

Oh yes, I'm still supposed to post the occasional snipplet.

[silicon/silicium]

whereas perspective 2 folk should consider an attenuator or maybe iso-box

well, attenuator or iso-box really don't let your sound intact. recording in an iso box is definitly not the same than micing an amp with lot of air around, even if it's your cab feeded by your amp. for me, iso boxes and soak are in the same case than vamp, pod and software. unless you use it everytime, it's a compromise. your amp will never sound the same with a powerbreak, nor with an isobox. I recorded a lot of guitars, if you can, play loud, at the volume the guitarist usually play, try to mic not too close. otherwise, you ll have to compromise, either with a soak, isobox, or sims. that said, I use to use soak and iso boxes in the past, but i ll never do that again comparing to the ease I can have with sim or software.

[guitarzan]

I've got GR2 also and have a few presets I really like - but my favorite tone is coming from my combo of GreaseTube, SimulAnalog, and Boogex, though. It's a very "vintage" tone that may not even interest you or others here. Fender blackface to Fender hotrod.

The coolest new thing about GR2 over GR1 (besides the great new Noise Reduction) is the Input Level Modifier. You can assign it so that your playing dynamics can turn any knob on the whole rack! In a high gain Neil Young-like rig I used the Input Level MDF to oscillate the "Sustain" knob on the Big FUZZ, and change the compression ratio on a Tube Compressor - really life-like!!

Yes, I'd rather be listening to an amp in a room - but once you try to record it (using any method, really) your right back to strange sounds on the headphones that need tweekin'

[Sascha Franck]

I've got GR2 also and have a few presets I really like - but my favorite tone is coming from my combo of GreaseTube, SimulAnalog, and Boogex, though. It's a very "vintage" tone that may not even interest you or others here. Fender blackface to Fender hotrod.

I love such tones.
Maybe you could share your eXT preset (in case it's only using Boogex' standard impulses).
Just out of interest: What are you using to bring your guitar up to line level?
Personally, while I do have the Rig Kontrol, I will only use it for small live gigs.
Still looking for the best solution to feed my Indigo I/O. Doesn't seem to like anything enhancing the sound too much (I tried with a Presonus tube pre), so I'm probably getting an Audiobuddy indeed, which might not be that stellar, but it seems to be rather neutral (M-Audios DMP3, which I was also considering, has all that enhancement going on, plus, the inputs are on the back, pretty bad for anything live).

The coolest new thing about GR2 over GR1 (besides the great new Noise Reduction) is the Input Level Modifier. You can assign it so that your playing dynamics can turn any knob on the whole rack! In a high gain Neil Young-like rig I used the Input Level MDF to oscillate the "Sustain" knob on the Big FUZZ, and change the compression ratio on a Tube Compressor - really life-like!!

Yeah. You can also use it to simply enhance "guitar volume down = dirty gets clean" patches.

Yes, I'd rather be listening to an amp in a room - but once you try to record it (using any method, really) your right back to strange sounds on the headphones that need tweekin'

Ah yeah... don't tell me. I think, the hottest tone I ever recorded (using some Diezel amp, an oversized Marshall cabinet, miked up with at least 4 thingies I don't remember, all running into an SSL and some Studer) delivered the shittiest headphone sound I ever heard. Was just great in the mix though.

[guitarzan]

I'm pretty new to eXT, mostly I've just been using it as a chainer, although I plan to use more features in the future. How would I share the eXT preset? The Boogex impulse is not standard though - I use the Blackface - no cabinet impulse from the Line 6 POD impulses at: http://www.noisevault.com/index.php?opt ... cat&cat=19

I also use compressors, delay, and reverb from the Kjaerhus classic series (for now - need to experiment more) and the TLs Pocket Limiter. Oh, and FloorFish for a noisegate.

[Pi_314]

To those that say that you can get great sounds from GR2 with a little tweeking. I'd like to hear it. I'm speaking in terms of the distorted sounds. Personally I don't think you can squeeze blood out of this tunip. Please feel free to proove me wrong. I will be the first to admit it.

It would be great if GR2s distorted sounds were different than anything else, and yet were pleasing to the ear, but that just not the case.

[guitarzan]

Sascha,
Another thing that differs in my setup, I use HUGE strings - .014 to .07, and I tune a full step low, so that would make my tone settings different from most peoples setup. Oh, and I use an Edirol FA-66 firewire interface.

[championrabbit]

could it not be said that the person in perspective 2 is being less than open minded and placing silly restrictions on themselves that could stifle some creativity they might not even be aware they possess?

No, not really.

If person X wants his guitar to sound a certain way, then he want's his guitar to sound a certain way.

Your argument is a little like saying to somebody who just ordered choccy cake in your restaurant that he's not being open minded when he refused to eat the cow-poo that you served him.

[championrabbit]

That's really not what I'm saying, though. I'm saying that I've got attenuator's, special speakers, special low power amps, tube recording preamps, etc. etc., and I'm getting THE best line level tone I've ever gotten....from a bunch of free VST's in energyXT!!

I don't think I'd be in this spot if I hadn't spent so many hours/days/years tweaking and listening critically to all that other stuff, but still...here I am!

You've totally missed my point.

My point is that if you are looking for a subjective 'good tone' from a starting place where you have only a generic 'rock tone' (for example) as a goal, then it's clearly possible (maybe even likely given the design of amp-sims) that you'll find a tone you like using amp-sims.

If, on the other hand, you are starting from the point where you already have a specific tone (created using you amp and cab) then clearly an iso-cab or attenuator is the kit that will be most useful.

This is the point I think spoils these discussions; some people are looking for an emulation and some are looking for a tone-generator.

If you can show me an amp-sim that will provide an accurate emulation of my late 60s Selmer valve head running both treble and bass channels at about 50% volume into a closed-back 1x12 cab then I'll eat my words, but as of today I haven't heard anything that will provide the accuracy of actually using this set-up with the addition of an attenuator.

[Lunch Money]

I think you're off-base, still, CR. You make the assumption that a sim can only come up with an "OK" or "I'll settle, I guess," sound, and some of us don't share that viewpoint.

One of the first rules of debate is that there are certain premises that must be agreed upon for it to bear any fruit. If the premises aren't agreed upon, then the entire rest of the debate is pointless. It's not that someone may have "missed" your point, but that they may not have agreed with your premise, which is an entirely different thing.

I dunno about your Selmer. I haven't even heard of any sims that try to emulate it, so that's probably not a good choice for comparison, and I suspect you know that already. Fine, you've picked an amp and a technique that you KNOW hasn't been emulated in software. No software can get you that sound. We all agree.

Greg

[Hink]

This is the point I think spoils these discussions; some people are looking for an emulation and some are looking for a tone-generator.

quite true CR...however I need to point out that the plexi model in my xt live is quite accurate (as I remember my plexi sounding)...however I sold that amp because of growth and the fact that it was a one sound...but it is a good emulation, even the tone controls are equally as nonresponsive as in my plexi...but then I'm looking for the best tones to compliment my playing, models like guitar brands mean nothing too me, what I do with it is what really matters...but I like how you put that, though tone generator hints at synths a little bit....

[guitarzan]

If, on the other hand, you are starting from the point where you already have a specific tone (created using you amp and cab) then clearly an iso-cab or attenuator is the kit that will be most useful.

OK, I see your point - if you already have THE tone you must have coming out of your amp - then that is what you should record.

But you've missed my point as well. The tone I'm getting with VST's isn't generic, it's closer to the tone I've been looking for than my amps can even do. My main amp is a Rivera era Fender Princeton Reverb II - it is the last handwired Fender amp built besides the custom shop stuff. I have all NOS tubes and not just any tubes. These plugs sound better to me- and better than all the other stuff I tried, too. The opposite of generic, this is my tone.

[championrabbit]

I think you're off-base, still, CR. You make the assumption that a sim can only come up with an "OK" or "I'll settle, I guess," sound, and some of us don't share that viewpoint.

No!

That's not my point at all!

What I'm saying is that given the range of sounds that an ampsim can achieve when compared to your amp/cab/mic set-up and given that you don't have to know the first thing about miking to use one, it's TOTALLY possible that (accepting that you aren't attempting to emulate a specific sound) you'll find the 'Best Sound I Ever Recorded using you Valvulatortron VST.

If you start from a place where you only have a vague idea of what you are looking for (or an open mind as Hink says) then a VST might be just the thing.

Hope that's clearer.