KVR Audio

metamorphosis · Post by **metamorphosis** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:50 am

james0tucson wrote: Portable minidiscs are noisy, they *all* put DRM on your track, and none of them actually has a straight digital IO. The Sony models force you to run Soundstage which has permission to erase your master. Some people are willing to participate in such shenanigans, but I am not.

... What?!? If you don't have straight digital IO, you don't have DRM. There's no way to transmit DRM through an analog signal -
I have a sony minidisc, I just run the leadout into my soundcard, get it into the computer that way - like most people do.
They may be noisy (well, they're still quiet compared to any kind of computer), but a second-hand model is inexpensive and useful-
m@t

james0tucson · Post by **james0tucson** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:45 am

metamorphosis wrote:
james0tucson wrote: Portable minidiscs are noisy, they *all* put DRM on your track, and none of them actually has a straight digital IO. The Sony models force you to run Soundstage which has permission to erase your master. Some people are willing to participate in such shenanigans, but I am not.
... What?!? If you don't have straight digital IO, you don't have DRM. There's no way to transmit DRM through an analog signal -

Making an entire line of digital recorders, no model of which has a digital output, is DRM, as far as I'm concerned. It locks me out of my work, effectively. A big no-no.

I have a sony minidisc, I just run the leadout into my soundcard, get it into the computer that way - like most people do.

You do this because you are *forbidden* from getting it in a digital form. You have to be willing to accept the nasty converter, or you have to invest in a very expensive "pro" model that has digital output. Either way you *cannot* extract the ATRAC data directly, say, to transfer from an ATRAC MD to an ATRAC DAT.

Not a dance I'm willing to put on my card again, I'm afraid, and when Sony tapped me on the shoulder with this, it turned out to be suicide.

John Vulich · Post by **John Vulich** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:52 am

DevonB wrote:I've heard good things about the Marantz portables. You considered them at all?

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PMD660/

Devon

Funny, I've heard nothing but how noisy they are. Oade Brothers even have a mod for it, in order to rectify this problem...

http://www.oade.com/digital_recorders/h ... 0MODS.html

John Vulich · Post by **John Vulich** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:53 am

I've found this Yahoo! group to be a good resource for info on Field Recording equipment...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/messages

John Vulich · Post by **John Vulich** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:01 am

DevonB wrote:Oh, stay away from MD, as it's a compressed format. Also, get one with XLR and suppies 48v power so you have flexibility with a mic. The one with the built-in mic limits your flexibility.

Devon

The new Hi-MD Recorders, from Sony, record uncompressed 16bits/44.1khz PCM audio.

Here's a thought. If you don't know what you're talking about, it might be a better idea to refrain from giving erroneous advice.

John Vulich · Post by **John Vulich** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:23 am

I've actually been researching this topic pretty intensely for the last couple of weeks.

From what I have been able to gather, the Edirol R-09 is the current favorite for affordable digital memory card based recorders. Followed by the M-Audio Microtrack and the Edirol R-1.

None of them seem to be the perfect solution. Not a single one has a very good preamp. From what I've read, they are all a bit noisy.

You can get a wide variety of good portable preamps ranging in price from several hundreds of dollars all the way to $2,000.00 or more.

On the high end, Nagra and Sound Devices have several models that seem to be the cream of the crop for field recording. Expect to pay accordingly. A lot of them seem to hover around the $2-3,000.00 dollar range.

From what I've been reading, consumer oriented card based digital recorders are a very new product line, that most electronics manufactures are just now realizing the profitability of. Apparently, M-Audio and Edirol have had quite unexpected success with their respective products so many enthusiasts feel that this will lead to more aggressive development in the next few years.

For myself, I've decided on an Edirol R-09 and a Rode NT4 Stereo Mic. I will hold off an any preamps until I've been able to discern first hand if I'll need one for the types of sounds I'd like to record.

John Vulich · Post by **John Vulich** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:24 am

Another good resource...

Vermont Folklife Center - Audio Field Recording Equipment Guide

intel · Post by **intel** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:41 am

I've been using a MD recorder for months. I picked up a cheap stereo mic on eBay and once I got an extension cord to get the mic away from the recorder (where it was picking up the sound of the disc initiating and turning) it worked like a charm. I've never tried to record silence, so I have never run into a problem with it being noisey and have never cared about having a straight digital i/o, so that's not an issue for me either. run the line out into the line in on my soundcard and no one has ever complained about the sound quality. I got the MD recorder used on eBay with a carrying case and a handful of discs for around $80. the mic was $15. unless you're an audiophile or have the hearing of a bat, you really don't need anything more.

Mr. Tunes · Post by **Mr. Tunes** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:52 am

james0tucson wrote:
Mr. Tunes wrote:
james0tucson wrote:
Mr. Tunes wrote: Anyways James did you not read my post about how the DRM is gone now?
Do you not understand the concept of "death penalty?"

I don't care if the condemned found religion on death row, get it?

The grim reaper of audio has arrived

You understand my position, right? Anyone who tries to put a barrier between me and my creative works, be it technology such as DRM or litigation, loses. That's why I don't do business with the Dongle people, and that's why I damn sure don't do business with the likes of Sony. It's that simple.

Yes I understand your position. When I first got my Hi-MD I was disappointed with the one-time transfer policy but it's gone now. I don't hold grudges against companies that listen to their consumers and adjust policies accordingly. If I went around holding grudges I wouldn't get anywhere in life in general. Even when there was DRM the community made a hack that prevented you from having your recordings binded onto the discs forever after you transfered them once. Laugh at me but i've used this MD on film sets to have my own copies of the recordings uncompressed 16/44.1 cause I didnt trust the camera's recordings and it worked nicely(running two feeds from the mixer).

DevonB · Post by **DevonB** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:28 am

John Vulich wrote:
DevonB wrote:I've heard good things about the Marantz portables. You considered them at all?

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PMD660/

Devon
Funny, I've heard nothing but how noisy they are. Oade Brothers even have a mod for it, in order to rectify this problem...

http://www.oade.com/digital_recorders/h ... 0MODS.html

Considering I had talked to someone who had a published review of one of the Marantz units, and had read a few other reviews of other people who's owned the unit, I was taking their word.

Devon

John Vulich · Post by **John Vulich** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:31 am

DevonB wrote:Considering I had talked to someone who had a published review of one of the Marantz units, and had read a few other reviews of other people who's owned the unit, I was taking their word.

Devon

I don't know who's reviews you're reading but it's pretty much universally regarded as having VERY noisy preamps...

http://4webresults.com/blog/04-05/maran ... ing-device

DevonB · Post by **DevonB** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:43 am

John Vulich wrote:
DevonB wrote:Oh, stay away from MD, as it's a compressed format. Also, get one with XLR and suppies 48v power so you have flexibility with a mic. The one with the built-in mic limits your flexibility.

Devon
The new Hi-MD Recorders, from Sony, record uncompressed 16bits/44.1khz PCM audio.

Here's a thought. If you don't know what you're talking about, it might be a better idea to refrain from giving erroneous advice.

Which you bring up a good point as a key distinction. Buying a standard MD recorder *IS* still going to record in a compressed format. The *NEW* Hi-MD allows compressed and uncompressed. I did not realize there was the new format from Sony out. This still does not change the fact about the old MD ATRAC format because the new HiMD format is out. If you bought an old MD recorder off of Ebay, it wouldn't do the new format.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiniDisc

Devon

John Vulich · Post by **John Vulich** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:45 am

DevonB wrote:Which you bring up a good point as a key distinction. Buying a standard MD recorder *IS* still going to record in a compressed format. The *NEW* Hi-MD allows compressed and uncompressed. I did not realize there was the new format from Sony out. This still does not change the fact about the old MD ATRAC format because the new HiMD format is out. If you bought an old MD recorder off of Ebay, it wouldn't do the new format.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiniDisc

Devon

Sony's had the Hi-MDs out since 2004. There are several of them available on eBay... right now.

Cordelia · Post by **Cordelia** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:52 am

Zoom has one out called the H4, I think. I haven't tried it, but the price is nice:
http://www.soundonsound.com/news?NewsID=8507

John Vulich · Post by **John Vulich** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:55 am

The H4 actually looks pretty interesting.

Which Digital Recorder for field recordings?