REASON 4 - finally some new info!

[headquest]

In the end we use it how we like, or not at all

Now then, hands up everyone here at KVR who doesn't actually have a piece of audio recording software or a VST host, and hence needs to pay Propellerhead to implement these into Reason?

[headquest]

Me, I would have been absolutely shocked if it did make it in.

Me too. There was a point where I liked the idea of a tape-recorder emulation in the rack.

Then I actually thought it through...

[emdot_ambient]

I think most people on KvR who bag Reason don't REALLY get the concept. I was personally hoping for some simple audio track support, but I didn't really think it would replace Cubase + ReWire anyway...Expecting VST/VSTis is just silly, it would completely defeat the entire purpose and concept of Reason.

Well, first, Reason was originally marketed as a complete music studio, only it never had audio recording, so they're a victim of their own marketing if people don't get the concept.

But, as I said in the other big thread, ReWire was introduced before Reason came out as a way to incorporate Propellerhead's products into the emerging VST environment, without them going to all the problem of making their products VSTi. They've stuck with that original work-around for almost 10 years now, even though it's clear that VST/VSTi is the dominant virtual instrument format.

I think they cut their potential consumer base considerably because of that. Unless you're only using Propellerhead instruments and FX, ReWire forces you to compose in two different environments, switching back and forth to make them mesh. True, it's an easy thing to set-up, but it's a hassle to compose that way.

IMHO, making Reason a VST host might well be counter to its concept, but making it a VSTi is certainly not. And it would probably bring them a lot of business.

Propellerhead's been a very innovative company. I just don't personally see a need to invest in it considering all the VST's I already own and haven't the time to really get to know.

So a lot of the criticism isn't about not understanding the concept, but rather is about understanding how much more useful Reason could be if its concept were broadened.

[headquest]

I commented on the idea of Reason as a VSTi when you suggested it in the other thread, and I wonder what your response is. I'll repeat the points here:

"ReWire technically enables the simultaneous transfer up to 256 audio tracks (but specifically 64 in Reason's case as a slave) and 4080 channels of MIDI data. I wonder how messy the routing would get if the whole Reason paradigm existed as a monster multitimbral VSTi? I'm pretty sure that it would be a whole lot messier than Rewire

In reality I would expect the limitations imposed on Reason as a VST would seriously destroy it's capabilities, especially the modular routing which those who know and use it will agree is a key element of its power."

[Warmonger]

IMHO, making Reason a VST host might well be counter to its concept, but making it a VSTi is certainly not. And it would probably bring them a lot of business.

This is one point that I absolutely agree with. Just create an additional version, sans sequencer, that runs as a VSTi. I know there's more to it than that from a coding perspective, but Reason is already separated into distinct components, so it should be possible. I imagine they don't want to deal with the whole VST landscape, as it adds a significant amount of additional testing and maintenance work, but from an end-user perspective, it would probably be better than Rewire. The one major technical issue I see with this is the whole VST bank and patch system, and how that could interface with Reason.

[headquest]

So how do you think CV cabling would work?

And how about automation - many of my Reason songs use 50+devices (and i've come across ones that use far more!) - that's a whole load of automation parameters!

[Warmonger]

I commented on the idea of Reason as a VSTi when you suggested it in the other thread, and I wonder what your response is. I'll repeat the points here:

ReWire technically enables the simultaneous transfer up to 256 audio tracks (but specifically 64 in Reason's case as a slave) and 4080 channels of MIDI data. I wonder how messy the routing would get if the whole Reason paradigm existed as a monster multitimbral VSTi? I'm pretty sure that it would be a whole lot messier than Rewire

In reality I would expect the limitations imposed on Reason as a VST would seriously destroy it's capabilities, especially the modular routing which those who know and use it will agree is a key element of its power.

To the first part, you could have multiple DLLs like Kontakt (for the "Cubase sucks" hosts that do a shitty job with multi-out instruments), and I don't think anyone would really miss the MIDI channel thing, as you could presumably have multiple instances of ReasonVST, each fed by a totally different MIDI device.

To the second, I don't see any reason why you'd have to give up any of the routing functionality. That's all handled by the Reason Engine.dll, which should basically remain intact in a VST port. Of course I'm making a lot of assumptions about how Reason is set up architecturally, but based on what I've read, and extrapolating from my own experience with software engineering, I think they're basically valid.

[snooky]

I always loved reason and with these new additions look like it now might be really usefull..however, it's not the groundbreaking system they advertise, it just now got what the big boys have (except audio tracks and vst support and freeze?)

anyways...I'd upgrade if I had the cash :P

[headquest]

They've stuck with that original work-around for almost 10 years now, even though it's clear that VST/VSTi is the dominant virtual instrument format.

I think there are a lot of pro musicians using Reason who would disagree there. They put stuff together in Reason and then bring it directly into Pro Tools in the studio using rewire as a real easy way to do that. If Reason was redeveloped into a VSTi that would not be the case any more... because contrary to your point VST is far from the dominant format in the pro recording world - almost all the major studios run on software that doesn't support VST (but does support Rewire)

The good thing with Rewire is that ALL the major hosts - including DP, Pro Tools etc (which don't have VST) have Rewire hosting. Reason crosses the board from being a massively popular consumer product to also being a favourite with pro artists across a whole range of styles. The universal adoption of Rewire has made that possible.

[Warmonger]

I always loved reason and with these new additions look like it now might be really usefull..however, it's not the groundbreaking system they advertise, it just now got what the big boys have (except audio tracks and vst support and freeze?)

anyways...I'd upgrade if I had the cash :P

Propellerheads get slammed way too often for their marketing. It's largely bullshit, but so is all marketing. At least they're not as bad as Apple. Still, for people who use Reason the way they do, version 4 truly is a huge upgrade.

[zvenx]

I too had vsti as my number one wish. I hardly use reason anymore because as easy as rewire is as compared to using a hardware synth is is no where as easy as using a vsti... I work with speed....sadly I have to the realisation that reason may never be vsti, au or rtas or whatever format rocks your boat....

rsp

[Warmonger]

So how do you think CV cabling would work?

And how about automation - many of my Reason songs use 50+devices (and i've come across ones that use far more!) - that's a whole load of automation parameters!

Just to clarify here, you do understand that I'm talking about taking the entire rack and putting that in a VSTi plugin, not the individual devices, right?

[fgimian]

Getting the concept and agreeing with it 100% aren't the same thing.

edit: Upon re-reading the quote, I see that he mentions being a bit surprised. Which does indicate a tiny bit of hypocrisy. Me, I would have been absolutely shocked if it did make it in.

I think you see what I'm saying a little here, I realize I came across as being a hypocrite. I always felt that Reason wouldn't have audio recording, but I was hoping it would be added. Especially after all the people have been requesting it. I don't think that audio recording is outside the scope of Reason's concept anyway. It keeps the program closed to 3rd party stuff but is simply an addition to the sequencing abilities, just like tempo automation .etc that has been added in v4.

The reason I expected it to be in is because Reason can run standalone and a lot of people seem to use Reason standalone. It makes sense that it would have some way of adding a vocal recording into the mix. But I guess that would defeat the point of ReWire in some respects.

Maybe this is a bit of politics between the DAW market and Props, not sure. I personally most likely wouldn't use audio recording in Reason anyway since I love my VST/VSTis too much. But there are a few occasions where I produce a track solely in Reason where having audio tracks would be sweet.

Either way, I'm ecstatic about the update and love Reason to bits. I have loved it since I started using it many years ago and still use it just as much as I did when I bought it. Awesome design, stability and support by Props too!

Cheers
Fots

[DRS]

Nice thread, guys. Way better and civilized than the other one about R4, so i'm gonna repost what i said on the other thread.

The way i see it, Reason is just another (cool) tool for us musicians. Some will like it, some won't. Calling it "a complete music studio" is part of Props marketing team, even thou it's not completely true (yeah, it surely lacks audio in, etc).

Marketing is just a word and i don't believe that anyone here will just buy it just because of a phrase like "complete music studio".

We buy things and we use things that better fits our needs and expectations (imho).

I believe many here use more than one VST instrument or fx to get certains sounds. Isn't it great the fact that there are many VSTs out there? Or hosts? Or a software like Reason?

What we all do have is plenty of options nowadays, and i can't see why R4 can't be considered (by some) just as that: another option.

Personally i have nothing against one more VST synth, or one more host or one more tool (like Reason) to pick up. Most of the time, the more options we have, the better. We can pick the ones we like and simply ignore the ones we don't.

A bit off topic here: there's an interest concept explored mainly by Barry Schwartz (among others) about when too many choices are just too much to handle, called The Paradox of Choices. .

[_oswald]

The way I see it, the Props have me hittin' Lake Street to give gumjobs to scare up some venture capital to upgrade come the Fall.