Composing in the style of...

[Sixofour]

I do listen to classical music, alot of it is great. I don't idolize the composers however. And for most of these people[the ones saying western music theroy is end all be all], its not about art. Its about having something that they think is guenuinly superiour to something from the East. Its natinalism-esque sentiments, but instead of nations, its east versus west. You find the same argument with people who believe the greeks were the epitomy of resoning and logic, the ones who "cleared the darkness" as it were. Its crap. On the contrary, most of us who see the valve for music for what it is, do enjoy it. I enjoy music from any background most of the time. I even use ideas present in all of these different backgrounds...

You asume that the things dominate in classical music are original to classical music. Thus you seem to see a contradiction when i said the elements of classical music have always been there. But classical music is very young as a knowledge. There is no implication that i said classical music is old and young.

I don't replace classical music with something else for the title of "end all be all of music"..because there is no end all be all of music. You seem to abjectly assume that i am suggestion another type of music is superiour to classical music, and you thus expect me to bring to the table a list or such of composers who fit that bill. Of course, i'm not proposeing anything is better than something else, i am however saying classical music and its theroy are not as high and great as most make them out to be.

Debussy and Stravinsky were original...So was Bjork, Cybernaut, Origin unknown and Me, tiesto was original at one point also.

[mhemnarch]

I do listen to classical music, alot of it is great. I don't idolize the composers however. And for most of these people[the ones saying western music theroy is end all be all], its not about art. Its about having something that they think is guenuinly superiour to something from the East. Its natinalism-esque sentiments, but instead of nations, its east versus west. You find the same argument with people who believe the greeks were the epitomy of resoning and logic, the ones who "cleared the darkness" as it were. Its crap.

Maybe I didn't go over the thread with a fine enough comb, but I can't recall anyone who said anything resembling what you're ranting about. I call strawman.

You asume that the things dominate in classical music are original to classical music. Thus you seem to see a contradiction when i said the elements of classical music have always been there. But classical music is very young as a knowledge. There is no implication that i said classical music is old and young.

One thousand years is hardly young as knowledge goes. That's longer than many art forms, nations, and entire occupational fields are.
Furthermore, you keep saying that the basic structures of classical aren't unique to it - okay, I'll bite. Which fields of music, specifically, had harmonic languages similar to classical not only in complexity but in specific details? Where, exactly, did the Western composers steal from?

I don't replace classical music with something else for the title of "end all be all of music"..because there is no end all be all of music.

I disagree. As much as the asininity of postmodernism has convinced so many to abandon critical judgment, particularly in regards to the arts, the fact remains that there ARE great works. Beethoven's piano sonatas and Madonna's new single, for example, are not intrinsically the same - and the fact that some works have what amounts to a close-to-universal appeal for those who take the time to understand them proves that.
This is precisely what I was talking about before - that this supposed "tolerance" or "broadness" of thinking is a form of exclusivism rather than inclusivism. Rather than add to the list of great works, you deny the existence of great works altogether. History tells another story.

You seem to abjectly assume that i am suggestion another type of music is superiour to classical music, and you thus expect me to bring to the table a list or such of composers who fit that bill. Of course, i'm not proposeing anything is better than something else, i am however saying classical music and its theroy are not as high and great as most make them out to be.

Debussy and Stravinsky were original...So was Bjork, Cybernaut, Origin unknown and Me, tiesto was original at one point also.

I suppose I should have seen this coming - I asked for examples of the "world music" works of genius on par with Western classical, and in return I get this. Your list is more hopelessly limited than any good Western classical canon I've come across - a few artists, all European or American, in the span of forty years, all electronica in one form or another (excluding the last one, which I can't seem to find any information about - link, please?). It's ludicrous to attack Western classical for unoriginality of thought and limited perspective and then give a list like this.

[nuffink]

(excluding the last one, which I can't seem to find any information about - link, please?).

Ah yes, tiesto. Where to start...

[Sixofour]

The list of artist I gave you was intended to mock you. /facepalm You claim some artists had originality, and i gave you a few more with originality..the point is? [rehtorical question]

Summary: Me: I don't think classical music is as grand as you think it is. You: Want to find an excuse for my rationale.

Classical music is as nice as any other forum of music, it has goods and bads, but it is not a special case, it is not top of the class, and it is not superiour to anything. And that type of thinking is detrimental to art. That is my point.

/dicussion

[mhemnarch]

The list of artist I gave you was intended to mock you. /facepalm You claim some artists had originality, and i gave you a few more with originality..the point is? [rehtorical question]

And you gave me a list which, for the most part, was significantly less original and less diverse than the music you were criticizing.

Summary: Me: I don't think classical music is as grand as you think it is. You: Want to find an excuse for my rationale.

I'm not sure which of us needs to work on our English, but I honestly can't tell what you're even trying to say in that last sentence.

Classical music is as nice as any other forum of music, it has goods and bads, but it is not a special case, it is not top of the class, and it is not superiour to anything.

Repeat your mantras all you want; it doesn't make them any more true.

And that type of thinking is detrimental to art.

The real detriment to art is the deadening postmodern erasure of all that is great or exceptional. All art isn't created equal, and it is precisely for that reason that artists work laboriously to excel.

[jancivil]

I suppose I should have seen this coming - I asked for examples of the "world music" works of genius on par with Western classical, and in return I get ...

Raga Aberi by Lakshinarayana Shankar. The tala is 6 3/4 matras.

It uses a form called trikala, which means the tune can be expressed in terms of (durationally) double, 3/4s, 2/3ds, half, 1/4, etc, simultaneously in an extemporization.

Which to do has to be pretty fuggin well designed. It's not on a par, it's different, and to my mind goes far beyond anything through-composed, by definition. You don't have to concur, but just check the thing out

EDIT for a typo

[ughnonumus]

The argument would run, that the principles of Indian music are ANCIENT, and are believed by most of the people involved in the study of its antiquity, to predate the written word. There is an entire, vast cosmology and description of time, involving syllables which are believed to be sacred, aligning with objects on the micro and the macro level. In time. Transcendental Meditation, is in fact based on these principles, syllables in time. Compared to western music theory, it's huge.

These statements might be more correct if one were pointing specifically at the post-Atlantean Epoch. After all, everything that you have given Old India (i.e. not to be confused with New India, as it is today) credit for was actually passed to it from the previous civilisation. What a curiosity? Parsing it all out is contingent on how well-versed (pardon the pun) one is in Cosmological events. These are not trivial and requires many years of study within many different disciplines.

The difficulty in working with Old Indian culture is that nothing was originally written down. Ultimately, what should not have been forgotten was lost...to borrow the same reminder from The Lord of the Rings.

[ughnonumus]

Classical music is as nice as any other forum of music, it has goods and bads, but it is not a special case, it is not top of the class, and it is not superiour to anything.

Preferences aside, what is contained within classical music might easily be considered superior by one who reconises it.

And that type of thinking is detrimental to art. That is my point.

Personally, I find the egotistical thinking which is typically rooted in animal desires and self-seeking to be quite detrimental to art. In fact, I don't believe these works will stand the test of time, particularly when most of the human race overcomes these lower drives. Of course, much of the modern art today encourages just the opposite.

[Sixofour]

The real detriment to art is the deadening postmodern erasure of all that is great or exceptional.

Except you forgot one thing, Classical Music isn't great. There is no secret thing only certain people 'get'. All there is, is an over fatuation with a time and with the music itself. Much like maggots have an over infatuation with slipknot and therefor believe they are the greatest metal band on the face of the earth. When really we all know Dethclok is the greatest metal band on the face of the earth

<--Bach cannot even compete...

@ above poster: Humans will never get over their base desires and accept a moral authority as a whole. The end of the world will be a time where humans are scavangers. They will become the monkies they believed to have came from.

[mhemnarch]

Raga Aberi by Lakshinarayana Shankar. The tala is 6 3/4 matras.

It uses a form called trikala, which means the tune can be expressed in terms of (durationally) double, 3/4s, 2/3ds, half, 1/4, etc, simultaneously in an extemporation.

Which to do has to be pretty fuggin well designed. It's not on a par, it's different, and to my mind goes far beyond anything through-composed, by definition. You don't have to concur, but just check the thing out

Thank-you! I'll be sure to look into that. It definitely sounds like a deep piece of music.

[mhemnarch]

Except you forgot one thing, Classical Music isn't great. There is no secret thing only certain people 'get'.

Sure there is. The system of harmony alone takes time to really get a handle on, much less the counterpooint, repetition and variation of themes, etc. You seem to think that just because you enjoy a piece of music to one degree or another you must have a thorough understanding of it, but the truth is that good classical music, like any other type of good music, rewards thorough listening that appreciates its subtleties and quirks.

[jancivil]

Raga Aberi by Lakshinarayana Shankar. The tala is 6 3/4 matras.

It uses a form called trikala, which means the tune can be expressed in terms of (durationally) double, 3/4s, 2/3ds, half, 1/4, etc, simultaneously in an extemporization.

Which to do has to be pretty fuggin well designed. It's not on a par, it's different, and to my mind goes far beyond anything through-composed, by definition. You don't have to concur, but just check the thing out

Thank-you! I'll be sure to look into that. It definitely sounds like a deep piece of music.

Watch out though, it's over 50 minutes long, and It Starts Slow. The name of the album is Raga Aberi. I think by this time the violinist called himself simply Shankar. His first exposure in the US etc was with Shakti, with John McLaughlin, Zakir Hussein (Alla Rakha Khan's kid), Vikku Vinyarakam on Ghatam (the interplay between the tablas and ghatam is such it seem like one instrument much of the time), and the violinist's father, Dr. V Lakshminarayana on vocals. The form is the venerable Ragam Tanam Pallavi. Not many musicians go for the whole trikala treatment anymore.

Btw, when I say 'beyond' I do not imply 'superior', or above.

[Sixofour]

Except you forgot one thing, Classical Music isn't great. There is no secret thing only certain people 'get'.

Sure there is. The system of harmony alone takes time to really get a handle on, much less the counterpooint, repetition and variation of themes, etc. You seem to think that just because you enjoy a piece of music to one degree or another you must have a thorough understanding of it, but the truth is that good classical music, like any other type of good music, rewards thorough listening that appreciates its subtleties and quirks.

No, the situation with me is i see everything you see, i simply don't hold it in as high reguard as you. Of course, your rebuttle will be "you obviously don't see what I see"...so whats the point?

And from this situation, I see people whos opinion that classical is some how superiour. Which puts this in the same classification as anything else, some peoples opinion is that slipknot is the greatest band, and alicia keys is the greatest pianist.

[VicDiesel]

Raga Aberi by Lakshinarayana Shankar. The tala is 6 3/4 matras

Is that 6 plus 3/4 of something or 6 times a 3/4 something?

Anyway, eMusic has it, spread over 7 tracks. Let me know anyone needs an introductory offer of 50 free tracks.

Victor.

[jancivil]

Classical music is as nice as any other forum of music, it has goods and bads, but it is not a special case, it is not top of the class, and it is not superiour to anything.

Preferences aside, what is contained within classical music might easily be considered superior by one who reconises it.

Superior to what?? This sure implies a limited sampling of what there actually is to hear in a world.