Just Intonation

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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jancivil wrote:Ok, what do 'you' mean by:
bernhardtjeff wrote: what [ji] lacks ... it makes up for in its sensitivity to more simple melodic lines.
?

I meant, and I'll be concrete, is a vocal raga, or a Persian melody, et al, necessarily a simple line.
no, of course not.

what i mean by what i said is that ji gives simple melodic lines that might be considered boring in et something interesting harmonically that et isn't capable of giving, i.e., the possibility to use intervals that produce more harmonically interesting results that aren't available in et. i guess you could sum this up as the conditional, "if it's a simple melodic line, ji can give it something harmonically interesting that et can't." how you got from that to something like "if it's a ji melody/line, then it must be simple" i don't know. you seem to be switching the antecedent to the consequent and then modifying the new antecedent in a way that makes it seem like i'm attacking ji, which i don't quite get.

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What? (I'm not even educated enough to break down syntax to terms like that, and I'm not bored enough to figure that out. :? )

I just wondered if you actually were limiting it to 'simple melodies'; 'in its sensitivity to simple...' Specifies with the 'modifier': 'simple'. Now you've clarified. Thank you. :)

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jancivil wrote:What? (I'm not even educated enough to break down syntax to terms like that, and I'm not bored enough to figure that out. :? )

I just wondered if you actually were limiting it to 'simple melodies'; 'in its sensitivity to simple...' Specifies with the 'modifier': 'simple'. Now you've clarified. Thank you. :)
alrighty, all good then :wink:

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jancivil wrote:
Mr Arkadin wrote:Harry Partch has many recordings based on his 43tET system:
Just by way of information (in case the abbreviation '[43]tET' is used here in its usual sense, '[43-]tone Equal Temperament'.): Just intonation isn't a temperament, and the intervals in such a system are anything but equally spaced.

But thank you for the links.
Ooops, yes. i was trying to write 43 tones to the octave (although the word octave also becomes meaningless in this scenario) and ended up thinking 12tET meant 12 tones to the octave, which of course it doesn't, and applying it to 43 tones :roll:. Or something.

Corrected my post to not confuse people reading this thread.

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jmeier wrote:there's a pre-written module for alternate tunings in reaktor that i've stuck into a bunch of my ensembles. i think it was originally written by the mysterious "bubu from bubuland," but i know for sure it wasn't written by me--i'm not that clever.

the ensemble "FM Schwein 2" has the alternate tuning module, which you can just pull out and paste into any other instrument you want:

http://www.jopyjopyjopy.com/public/reak ... d-samplers (http://www.jopyjopyjopy.com/public/reaktor/synths-and-samplers)
Do you know if there is a way to create your own tuning with this module? Ive tried the alternate tuning module, but I havent found a way to create my own tuning.

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Regarding the original post: None of the Ableton instruments are tunable like the other AU/VSTs mentioned: Zebra, Reaktor, etc. But you can tune them with the help of other programs. The one that works for me is LMSO X for Mac.

I play the Turkish bowed tanbur and have some decent knowledge of the Turkish system (actually just returned from Istanbul). So, just my two cents regarding just intonation is this:

JI (Pythagorean and based on the Pythagorean comma for the Turks, for example) is culturally and historically about MELODIC modulation. I think where a lot of Western theorists get mixed up is by assuming JI's weaknesses or strengths are based on how it would be used in Western-based music that relies on harmonic modulation. Turkish, Arabic, Persian, Indian, etc musics can have quite complex or simple melodies. Harmonies in these systems tend to arise from the overtones played by the instruments themselves. But the basis and use of the tunings is fundamentally different than the way that most Western-minded microtonalists choose to use these scales.

All this is to say, IMHO, I feel one should understand the historical and CULTURAL basis for variants of JI at least a little before making claims or critiques of it.

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I'm familiar with Arab, and Persian systems.

Can you give a row to illustrate 'based on the Pythagorean comma', please please?

[531441:524288, the measured discrepancy between twelve 3:2 5ths and seven 8ves (x 2:1)]


And, is their modulation pretty much maqam-like?

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jancivil wrote:I'm familiar with Arab, and Persian systems.

Can you give a row to illustrate 'based on the Pythagorean comma', please please?

[531441:524288, the measured discrepancy between twelve 3:2 5ths and seven 8ves (x 2:1)]


And, is their modulation pretty much maqam-like?
Cool! I really love Persian and Arabic music (and a bit of Harry Partch and others as well) :) Do you play an Arabic or Persian instrument or sing? I am not as familiar with those systems.

Sounds like you already know about the derivation of the comma. For others that might be interested, of course, google it, wikipedia, etc.

The Turkish equivalent of the Arabic maqam is the makam, so same word, different spelling. Like Arabic musics, Turkish makam are scales and as well as the rules for using the scales, melodic modulation (weaving in and out of different makamlar) is a fundamental part of traditional Ottoman art music in particular, and though Turkish folk uses a handful of makamlar, song (depending on the genre) takes precedence over melodic modulation.

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Lazos wrote:
Do you play an Arabic or Persian instrument or sing? I am not as familiar with those systems.

.
No, I just bend a lot of strings. I used to could sing that Hank Williams yodel-derived thing. Heh.

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jancivil wrote:I just bend a lot of strings.
http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php :wink:

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Laguna Rising wrote:
jancivil wrote:I just bend a lot of strings.
http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php :wink:
Very interesting! I'd like to test play a guitar by them.

A good friend of mine has one of these: http://www.godinguitars.com/godinglissentarp.htm

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When you said that you bend a lot of strings, jancivil, I didn't think guitar right away, though. I kinda pictured a Partch-like instrument with 86 strings and 15 whammy bars (maybe running through a distortion pedal) :D :wink:

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Laguna Rising wrote:
jancivil wrote:I just bend a lot of strings.
http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php :wink:
thank you for that!
I am always hedging on my strat. a standard, for instance strobe-tuned guitar, I don't even want to hear that shit.

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Lazos wrote:When you said that you bend a lot of strings, jancivil, I didn't think guitar right away, though. I kinda pictured a Partch-like instrument with 86 strings and 15 whammy bars (maybe running through a distortion pedal) :D :wink:
:lol:

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