Any soft synths like Korg Karma out there?

[TiUser]

Open Labs appear to be in difficulty:
www.gearjunkies.com/news_info.php?news_id=5342

That's bad news indeed and explains why there is no news on Karma-OpenLabs...

[MitchK1989]

Sugar Bytes Consequence can replicate SOME of Karma's features.

[jones-y]

Consequence is a sophisticated step sequencer. While I'm sure its capable of some Karma-like results, the processes by which it achieves those results have nothing in common with Karma.

[MitchK1989]

Consequence is a sophisticated step sequencer. While I'm sure its capable of some Karma-like results, the processes by which it achieves those results have nothing in common with Karma.

Consequence is more akin to an extremely flexible arpeggiator than a step sequencer. I think you might be mixing it up with Thesys.

[Urs]

While we're at it (presenting Karmaesque products), and for those who can read German, we (mostly me, with some help of some friends) have built a MIDI Sequencer that morphed phrases, rhythms, licks, melodies and stuff between 1996 and 1999:

http://www.u-he.com/sim/index.html

The one and only application we ever had was a music game we did for Sony which was called "Phondue", and which composed perfectly nice pop music in realtime with some user interaction (5 semantic faders for "Style", "Density", "Variation", "Sound" and uhm, "Tempo"). On top of that it analysed fader movements such as "cautious", "wild", "held back", "full on". It was an attraction at the Sony Music Box theme park in Berlin which unfortunately doesn't exist anymore.

For those who can't read German, the "sequencer" has various models of "musical contexts", e.g. it has a rhythmical context, it has a harmonic context and it has a context for timbre ("natural", "electronic"). These contexts would interact with each other and produce MIDI streams for different "roles" such as bass, drums, harmonies and leads. One could set up unlimited numbers of parameters and rules for each context, e.g. one would feed/edit example material that then would be analysed & mangled.

Was quite some fun but it was also mostly a toy. I still have my old G4 with MacOS 8.6 to run it, but I don't have the XG box that did the sound. If I wasn't so caught up in synth development I would make this part of a u-he host.

Urs

[pdxindy]

While we're at it (presenting Karmaesque products), and for those who can read German, we (mostly me, with some help of some friends) have built a MIDI Sequencer that morphed phrases, rhythms, licks, melodies and stuff between 1996 and 1999:

http://www.u-he.com/sim/index.html

The one and only application we ever had was a music game we did for Sony which was called "Phondue", and which composed perfectly nice pop music in realtime with some user interaction (5 semantic faders for "Style", "Density", "Variation", "Sound" and uhm, "Tempo"). On top of that it analysed fader movements such as "cautious", "wild", "held back", "full on". It was an attraction at the Sony Music Box theme park in Berlin which unfortunately doesn't exist anymore.

For those who can't read German, the "sequencer" has various models of "musical contexts", e.g. it has a rhythmical context, it has a harmonic context and it has a context for timbre ("natural", "electronic"). These contexts would interact with each other and produce MIDI streams for different "roles" such as bass, drums, harmonies and leads. One could set up unlimited numbers of parameters and rules for each context, e.g. one would feed/edit example material that then would be analysed & mangled.

Was quite some fun but it was also mostly a toy. I still have my old G4 with MacOS 8.6 to run it, but I don't have the XG box that did the sound. If I wasn't so caught up in synth development I would make this part of a u-he host.

Urs

I'd love to see you make an arp at some point...

[TiUser]

http://www.u-he.com/sim/index.html
Urs

I took a quick view into the documents. It sounds futuristic to me as it seems to cover so many different purposes. For everyone who can not read german - that's far more than just another sequencer. However I think the intention is quite different to Karma as Karma does not compose music... it just gives a musician certain elements one can manipulate in some musical-technical terms. I think Karma had some hard years to develop into something more or less useful. I guess "Phondue" will be no different. It's a challenge at least. I also see the parallel that "Phondue" needs access to "it's" sounds - like Karma does - do make the most out of it. Bad reproduction of GM midifiles or arranger styles point out what I mean here.

No clue if such a project can pay back. Amateurs will probably not spend much on such a "toy" while professionals might expect too much or feel treated like a child losing the "creative expertise" when delegating this to a software... and if they do - better let public not know who does the heavy lifting...

[Urs]

No clue if such a project can pay back. Amateurs will probably not spend much on such a "toy" while professionals might expect too much or feel treated like a child losing the "creative expertise" when delegating this to a software... and if they do - better let public not know who does the heavy lifting...

My concern, exactly.

It's great fun though morphing between drum patterns. That's a whole different story from just crossfading loops. And then you can thin them out or make them more dense. I guess I'll just do a drum machine then. That's the most "accessible" applicaation, the one that people easily "get".

Urs

[szurcio]

Did anyone mention Stylus RMX by Spectrasonics?

http://www.spectrasonics.net/instruments/stylusrmx.html


jeffn1

How can it compare to Karma? I thought it's mostly about drum patterns only...

[pdxindy]

No clue if such a project can pay back. Amateurs will probably not spend much on such a "toy" while professionals might expect too much or feel treated like a child losing the "creative expertise" when delegating this to a software... and if they do - better let public not know who does the heavy lifting...

I would love a software to delegate to... as long as I had good control over the parameters of how it responds... then it is really my playing that is controlling in realtime how the software responds... if I play notes softly or hard, speed up or play just few notes, whether I play a chord, or just strings of notes... all these things can be triggers or modulators so it is my playing and the mood of it and structure of it that is creating the response from the software... based on programming I did prior to playing...

I have seen very little exploration along these lines... I suppose it is complicated. I used to do theatre improv and I like to explore musical improv as live performance also... so this sort of software tool would make fertile ground for this sort of exploration.

[MitchK1989]

No clue if such a project can pay back. Amateurs will probably not spend much on such a "toy" while professionals might expect too much or feel treated like a child losing the "creative expertise" when delegating this to a software... and if they do - better let public not know who does the heavy lifting...

My concern, exactly.

It's great fun though morphing between drum patterns. That's a whole different story from just crossfading loops. And then you can thin them out or make them more dense. I guess I'll just do a drum machine then. That's the most "accessible" applicaation, the one that people easily "get".

Urs

YO URS, I'M REALLY HAPPY FOR YOU, AND IMMA LET YOU FINISH, BUT A U-HE GROOVEBOX WOULD BE THE GREATEST PLUG IN OF ALL TIME - OF ALL TIME!

Seriously though, built in drum synth (maybe the ability to load samples too?) plus a melodic sequencer (maybe with a switchable option to either load samples/midi out/a simple VA based on filterscape VA or whatever... like 1 osc with unison and morphing from saw to square, etc...)

[lih]

I was sort of surprised to read Stephen Kay's reply in the thread as to why he never quite validated the concept of a VST for Karma. I'm looking at my dusty Korg Karma in my studio right now - the only reason I keep it around is because of KARMA. When the M3 came out, I was very interested, but even after attending an excellent KORG product demonstration (3 people showed up at the LA Sam Ash), I didn't buy it becuase I knew that eventually it would gather dust because of the sounds and I figured a VST had to be around the corner . . . I'd buy that in a heart beat because it would better suit how I like to work.

I prefer working with the sounds that I have in my network of computers. I've spent a lot of time and money to choose things I want to work with. I only buy tools that support this creative freedom.

Often I've been in a project where I wished I could drop in a plug of Karma and then have it fed by other loaded VST instances. I'm probably understating the technical challenges of developing something like this, but conceptually at least I don't think it's anymore difficult than something like Vienna Ensemble Pro, which works brilliantly. I don't buy the implied (as I see it) argument that people won't get how to use the product or will make bad combis without a robust approved sound set shipping with the technology. So what? Every day there are people making bad music, but hopefully learning as they go. Even greater music will be made by the people who do know how to use it and that can only help KARMA and make Stephen more money.

Better to have both platforms for the technology - Rompler keyboards for one end of the market, and a VST for people who prefer to work in the box. My pro keyboard buddy who is on tour right now with a name act uses the M3 in every show, and I asked him what he thought about KARMA and he barely had any idea what it was - said he never used the M3 for that.

So there all kinds of ways to think about this. All I know is that I would be willing to pay 2 or 3 hundred bucks for a rock solid 64 bit VST that did what Karma could do.

[szurcio]

Ditto - Korg Karma is the largest/heaviest/most expensive software dongle I've ever seen.

[jeffn1]

Did anyone mention Stylus RMX by Spectrasonics?

http://www.spectrasonics.net/instruments/stylusrmx.html


jeffn1

How can it compare to Karma? I thought it's mostly about drum patterns only...

Well, I never really used either, but I will pretend I have a clue anyway. I think you can use Stylus RMX for more tonal oriented stuff too.

For example, check out this Vid:

It is probably very different than Karma, but it might be something you want to explore. (And I don't even have it!)

jeffn1

[TiUser]

Let's see how the Open Labs difficulties turn out. Maybe the result will change the Karma game too.