* WARNING * - Do NOT install new iLok software!

[Xenobt]

Harsh words Theo, but given your circumstances, I'd like to know how PACE would like to address these issues in future.

I'll take this one, Theo, if you don't mind...

It's called a beta test, and most manufacturers who plan something this radical would have every company who uses their "protection" do a thorough test on all platforms their software is compatible with. It would have revealed everything that's caused problems, and made it clear that this update was buggier than a frog turd.

This should have never affected any end users of their products, and been flagged and dealt with at the development level.

I wish I could afford to do a $10,000 system overhaul every few years, but the mid-level recording studio is quickly becoming a thing of the past as it is. And my last one took literally months (and I have the support emails to prove it) to chase down issues with things that worked fine before the upgrade, so if it works, I'm inclined to not fix it.

KVR/eSoundz: Xenobt

[robotmonkey]

As someone who was in the IT realm and especially support realm for quite some time, I need to comment on this.

HOWEVER, in the end it's up to the developers to decide. Developers are iLok's clients, not us! Anyone who had a problem should report to the DEVELOPER and let them make the decision to continue supporting iLok or pull out.
If you had activation problems, talk to the developer and tell them your painful iLok experience, including iLok's support who let you down.

I have to trust the devs to know what's best for their customers and the best way to protect their property.

Yes, and it is ultimately THEIR decision what they are doing. If they go for Syncrosoft, Pace or Codemeter - so be it. If they are going for C/R on either an own server or even a cloud - so be it. If one system goes down, sh*t happens - especially if the dev is like "oh no! now we also drop off the planet!"

Pace representatives did contact their users after all. Granted, only at GearSlutz and not KVR (yet) - but they communicate. And they did so right from the start(!) - with delays in terms of public announcements. Also, half of the pissed users could use their tools after like 3 days again already!

Cut these people some slack for a change. They are working on fixing that issue, and the issue is not the drivers or the software - the issue was due to the services transfer.

So it is NOT a users fault, it was a glitch in the database. And for the last 10 days, they were locked on to fixing all that.


Take more recent examples with painstakingly smashing bugs:
ArtsAcoustic for example... 5% of their users could not use this plugin due to reasons unknown. Then again, barely any users dared(!) to give a detailed issue report. So it took a while to track down and fix the problem. But it was ultimately fixed! Nobody took it out on them!

Or take Steinberg for example... their launch of Cubase resulted in an uproar of their users for over 4 months until most(!) bugs were ironed out with .0.4, and that thing is still faulty! Did anyone take it out on them as much as with PACE? No!

IK Multimedia... they are still known to have issues with the license management, especially on Macintosh. On Windows, there is this bug with "run as admin". Was this adressed up until this point? No (sometimes the "support" mysteriously even looses entries). Was this taken out on them like with PACE? No.


Here we have three examples of companies that had (and still have) issues, and how they handled it. Steinberg uses the Syncrosoft eLicenser USB Key system, IK Multimedia uses C/R. These two systems are not as much critisized as Pace/iLok however. And I ask myself why - because it's just as intrusive and driver loaden.

Goals should be:
- Easy to manage and install licenses

I don't know about you, but I find the system by both iLok and Syncrosoft dead easy compared to hacking in serials from eMails or box-bundled cards in order to get the response code.

- Unintrusive to the OS (no endless driver junk!)

Tell that also Native Instruments, Line6 and IKM with their license managers and Custom Shops.

- Support ticket system with guaranteed feedback within 2 hours

As someone that worked in IT support - this is highly unrealistic unless you have a call center with several hundred employees while half of them takes care of mails, and the other half of phone calls. Especially if the "bug" we're still debating really punished the whole userbase (think of several thousand users) and not just a fraction.

- Online chat tech support for troubleshooting in emergencies

Best if 24/7 including holidays, right? And best if you don't pay an extra dime for that service either through the developers selling their tools with Pace, or Pace directly.

Cool idea, and I'm sure you'd love this. But it's highly unrealistic.

In my ideal world, we all would have just a serial and avoid all need of the above.

In an ideal world, we don't need any C/P at all. But the reality is, that even freeware and low budget stuff is being cracked and "edited" off of nag screens.




Don't always blame it on the "punished userbase", people.
Epecially nowadays. Or should I remind you again of what Steinberg did back in the day in order to get an update for Cubase?

The LPT "dongle" had to be sent in, in order to get a new one. Turnaround... several days to weeks. These days, the turnaround is between 30s and 24 hours. And still people get mad, if they don't get their license within 5 seconds running!




If this is all to much for you - then stay the hell away from USB copy protection, Call & Response, Serials (either by file, or custom generated by the server), Watermarking. These are all intrusive and introduce possible bugs, some can't even be resold (samples especially).

Stick with software that is not market, or freeware.
But stop this useless debate - unless you were really involved!


And that could have been avoided, if you didn't need to update your drivers unless you bought something new in the last 10 days that is iLok dependent! Or you had to reinstall and lost your backed up drivers.



Seriously...
Constantly debating what they did wrong and "should have done" and "should do from now on" or even "I hate iLok and don't trust them anymore"... this doesn't help!



Sh*t happened, PACE is working on it - and this is all that matters!

No, this is just patently false. If a developer wants to have intricate CP scheme, then it should WORK 24H/7/365 100% for any customer who has paid for their software. Anything less is completely unacceptable. And if CP - that is non-essential part of any piece of software - stops you from using your paid software then the developer deserves all the contempt and no excuses nor sympathy. End of story.

[Crackbaby]

I find what happened to Xenobt very interesting. With the piracy discussions there's often a comparison to stealing a bike or other "hardware". But here the developer through it's choice of copy protection actually removes/steals the product from the user. I don't support piracy in any way, don't get me wrong.

The argument that the user must/should upgrade his hardware is crazy! Im lost for words.
Does Xenobt own his software or not?!
I can't see it in any other way that ilok/pace* must keep their older system going so that old users can continue to use their software on the systems they have used.

*(what's the difference here? pace is the company, ilok the product?)

[dalor]

Does Xenobt own his software or not?!

Technically, you do not 'own' the software but a license to use the software. The exact details of the license agreement are outlined in the EULA (End-user license agreement), or Terms and Conditions of what exactly you 'own'. Your lawyer needs to read the agreement of the software you couldn't access during the iLok meltdown to check if they were in breach of their agreement to you.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[Dean Aka Nekro]

If the software is compatible with older systems, the copy protection should be as well.

Pace doesn't make the plugins. The plugin manufacturer chooses a third party copy protection.

You're making my point for me. I bought Antares Harmony EVO last week. It'll run on my ancient (but POWERFUL) dinosaur of a system, but now the copy protection needs a whole different hardware architecture to authorize it. That's all Pace, not the manufacturers.

A legacy system that let PPC users transition as they upgrade would have been the right thing to do. Make a link to the old system, and let those who need it, use it.

Now I'll have to beg my way onto a friend's system and hope for the best when I take the damn things back to my work and home set-ups. Inelegant is the BEST thing I can say about it.

KVR/eSoundz: Xenobt

Xenobt the position you are in is horrible and nothing I can think of to say to make it any better, However I was thinking that if you could pickup a used/dirt cheap little netbook with a supported version of windows on it, Would that allow to do all the iLok business? You know the ones you can find for less than a £100, Just a thought if would allow you to keep your system going despite having to spend on something you shouldn't, It'd be the least amount of wallet damage perhaps man?

Again sorry you are in between a rock and hard place that stinks of shit mate,
All the best

Dean

Edit: These sorts of beastly powerful machines: http://secondlaptop.net/mini-laptops-under-100/

[HanafiH]

This is the point where I insert a questionably funny graphic in somebody else's thread.

But this just ain't funny. At all.

[sqigls]

timing HanafiH




you're always good for it


looks like a young Christopher Lloyd

[Compyfox]

It's called a beta test, and most manufacturers who plan something this radical would have every company who uses their "protection" do a thorough test on all platforms their software is compatible with. It would have revealed everything that's caused problems, and made it clear that this update was buggier than a frog turd.

The thing is, there was (according to the headmaster of PACE) an almost 10 month long Beta test. But... for the client side only. They did not test server side issues. And this is what this whole debacle is all about in the first place. The drop of certain hardware/OS support is a totally different thing.

No, this is just patently false. If a developer wants to have intricate CP scheme, then it should WORK 24H/7/365 100% for any customer who has paid for their software. Anything less is completely unacceptable. And if CP - that is non-essential part of any piece of software - stops you from using your paid software then the developer deserves all the contempt and no excuses nor sympathy. End of story.

Again - the problem was on the server side (as far as I could follow the whole story), not on the software client side. It should have worked in theory(!), and elder drivers did work(!) since you didn't need to sync unless you bought something new or were like "I need to update - liek NOWz!".

I am not commenting on the "moving license" thing anymore. I made my point pretty clear what I thought about it.

I wish I could afford to do a $10,000 system overhaul every few years, but the mid-level recording studio is quickly becoming a thing of the past as it is. And my last one took literally months (and I have the support emails to prove it) to chase down issues with things that worked fine before the upgrade, so if it works, I'm inclined to not fix it.

All good and fine, but like I said... maybe you have old drivers backed up, then try to sync your iLok at another rig. The licenses on the stick are important - not the drivers that run them.

And then prey that the particular company you bought your software from, doesn't drop off the planet or drop certain "support" (versions) without noticing.

This is all I can tell you. I feel for you, this whole thing sucks (I'd also prefer the online system still - and I hoped it would be an update towards that direction). But we know our enemy now, and now we have to deal with it.

Unfortunately... because the tools we're using with PACE (or Syncrosoft / Codemeter, etc) are still the tools we wanted and really like in our environment. So we have to live with the drawbacks.

I find what happened to Xenobt very interesting. With the piracy discussions there's often a comparison to stealing a bike or other "hardware". But here the developer through it's choice of copy protection actually removes/steals the product from the user. I don't support piracy in any way, don't get me wrong.

The argument that the user must/should upgrade his hardware is crazy! Im lost for words.
Does Xenobt own his software or not?!
I can't see it in any other way that ilok/pace* must keep their older system going so that old users can continue to use their software on the systems they have used.

*(what's the difference here? pace is the company, ilok the product?)

The thing is - it "should" work (again, in theory, old drivers, the licenses are stored on the stick which don't need further syncronisation, etc!). The only problem I see here is the new CP admin system, which ultimately dropped PPC.

It still sucks - but I don't consider that stealing "per se". I rather call that "forking over by force". Apple is a prime example for that with their OSes and hardware revisions (everything more new and shiny, but less connections).

And I fear the day, that other developers say "Now we drop Win 7 since Win8 is out and 2014 comes Win9. I do not want to go a new OS route if an old one is just as good and the "core engine" is the same (at least for Win7 and up).

But this is a completely different topic.

Anyway I am very close at this point in my life going back to windows and cubase 7. Because cubase 7 uses syncrosoft, all plugins for example nexus which use syncrosoft start up very very fast as cubase has already initiated the syncrosoft driver when it launches. No huge pauses like in logic.

But isn't that a Mac related "general" problem and not necessarily one that counts to this debate?!

As far as to replying, I like you and think you are a very smart guy and a skilled engineer with much knowledge and I very much enjoy reading your posts generally. It was more a nudge asking you to have empathy for those who have been affected by this incompetence of pace (I mean really? Not keeping a backup of the previous system to go back to temporarily? Unbelievable!)

I do have emphathy for people like Xenobit, because that is really a sh*t move - but actually one what was eventually happening anyway (again: the drop of SSE code in plugins, the drop of certain OS support, etc).


I understand all sides:
Apple being idiots in terms of constantly redefining their hardware, and messing sh*t up with their OS, then there is PACE that was like "seriously - old OSes, we have to drop them" (was Windows lower Vista dropped as well? Or are the users still evading the minimum requirements?), and then the user which is right in the middle that is like "F*CK! I just want to use my tools", and the developer on the other hand who still thinks "well - we haven't updated in like years - if it's not working, we simply say 'sorry bro, no support' and then 'whoops, we need to drop a certain version'".

Again, I fear the day that Steinberg does this with VST2 in favor for VST3, or AVID with RTAS in favor for AAX.



I understand all that!
But if I slam all that sh*t into my head, I go crazy. Like I said, I am knocking on wood. But stuff like that can, and always will, happen. This has to be expected eventually.



I am not defending nor fighting for either side here. I'm just commenting.

[4damind]

Somebody knows if this stuff is now working? If I understand this correctly, the iLok must be synced with the new iLok Manager which replaces the same time the web interface?

[trimph1]

I can full well understand Xeno's scenario as well as Theo's and several others.

PACE ( the company ) cannot put out an update/upgrade of their iLok ( product ) and get way with the amount of trouble that they are currently doing to the LEGITIMATE end-user then they simply are in the wrong.

If I put out a product that only works sorta/kinda how long do you expect it will take before ppl just go away from that aforesaid product?

I know that from here on in I will NEVER buy anything from ANY developer that uses this cocked up CP...simple.

[Dominus]

But all these people that had a constant rage about downtimes, or being cut off or whaterver (which was somewhat also their fault!), say that they use large scale studios. But from those people, we usually expect that the income is high enough to cover upgrades and the likes. And one can also expect that these people know when to update a software, and when to hesitate.

If you're in the middle of a project, sure, you don't want to touch anything. But nearly two weeks of downtime? Can you plan for that?

Consider this - you're working on a project and there's a good sale on a plugin that might work for the project you're working on. (There was a Softube sale going on during this debacle.) During regular times, if you add a plugin and your host becomes unstable, you can almost always just remove the plugin and go back to work. Or maybe you have to reinstall your OS, host, and plugins in the worst case scenario. So you're down for a day.

So you buy the plugin, go to download the license onto your iLok, and are FORCED to update your iLok software. No big deal, right? Same thing, if you have to start all over, you're down for a day.

The iLok software then WIPES your iLok clean of licenses. No recovery available for you... and you're down for two weeks. Your Pro Tools system is now an expensive paperweight.

That is a serious WTF moment there, a worst case scenario come true. Welcome to iLokalypse 2013. (Saw that on Gearslutz, can't take credit for that.) I can't place ANY blame on an enduser here. There is NO way that you could expect anything like this to happen.

I have an iLok with a couple of plugins on it. I will NEVER upgrade them and will NEVER buy another dongled product. There are always alternatives (almost always cheaper, and a lot of times even better if you learn how to use them), and like I said... in the case of C/R and a company disappearing, you just lose the software from that ONE company. With iLok, people lost software from multiple companies. AND THE SAME THING CAN HAPPEN WITH ELICENSOR, IT JUST HASN'T YET.

[Compyfox]

Yes, this can always happen with ALL KINDS of C/P systems. Again, prime example is Kjaerhus.

But... I have to emphasize once more...
The iLok and the client itself wasn't faulty - the syncronisation to the server was. And if I followed the debates and the news correctly, even those "corrupted" licenses are working again.

So it was a temporary issue. An issue no doubt, but temporary.



I understand the problem,s I understand the "need" to add something that wasn't there with the rig before (during a project). But even then - couldn't that have waited until you are finished? Or... if you're demoing a lot of stuff - don't you have an old v1 spare iLok? (I do have one - and most companies are still on v1, only a handful are on v2 now)


Several sides to a medal. I don't need to drag this out any further. I made my point. PACE fixed most of the problems by now.



And this issue sure as hell doesn't keep me from using C/P systems with USB keys or whatever. Which also means, that I won't drag that out in threads popping up - which will happen, I'm sure of that.

For example: Slate Digital's VBC will be released eventually this summer. I'm 100% certain already, that by end of page 1, there is at least ONE hate post towards the iLok system. It's currently happening all over the place at the market place, the FX section - here on KVR, and moderately on GearSlutz.

I only ask myself "why?!
Aren't there bigger problems with far worse issues?


Like companies who take your money and run? Or... overpriced annual payments for software just to "keep it running" for more than a year (bcause internally it has a bit that turns off your tool after 365 days!)?

Think about it.




Oh, and there were issues with eLicenser... just not more recent ones.

[Dominus]

Anyway I am very close at this point in my life going back to windows and cubase 7. Because cubase 7 uses syncrosoft, all plugins for example nexus which use syncrosoft start up very very fast as cubase has already initiated the syncrosoft driver when it launches. No huge pauses like in logic.

Alternatively, you could dump both the iLok products and Syncrosoft products. The host is the most important thing on a DAW, and you've been happy with Logic for how long now? You're definitely a Mac/Logic guy. (And I say this as a PC builder. )

[streifentier]

On a completely different note: The thread title should be changed now the issue has been solved.