Cakewalk Sonar X3

[aMUSEd]

Now people have the new version, can you record audio from plugins live now with this version?

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Now people have the new version, can you record audio from plugins live now with this version?

I had asked in the Cakewalk forum and got no response. Being that they didn't include "improved signal routing" or "record plugins in realtime" as a new feature in any of the marketing, I'm sure the answer is no.

It's insane to me that any modern DAW wouldn't do this.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Noel if you will humour me to post my bug list from X2 of the major stuff, and tell me if its been fixed in X3, now THAT would be amazing. Will you do that for me? I've a back injury and don't want to crawl upstairs to get it if it won't get a reply. Just being straight with you. Thanks.

Well, if you post it in the Sonar forum he or users will do it for you. They are doing it for me now.
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Has-X3a-fixed ... 00340.aspx

Ok will try that thank you

This is what Andrew wrote in a few page back. Try and schedule a call with him to resolve your issues.

Finally, I reached out a few folks personally on KVR who were unhappy to try and schedule calls with them to go over some of their issues and see if we could right their experience. I got no takers. Why? I don't think they really care about getting help or talking to us. They obviously have another agenda and direct discussion with us is not one of them.

I wasn't included in this outreach, but I'd happily discuss what I'd like improved in my Sonar experience with Andrew. Though, I think I outlined this stuff fairly comprehensively in some of these forum posts, so perhaps that's why he didn't contact me. Again however, if Andrew's interested, I'd happily set some time aside for a call.

[beltrom]

Now people have the new version, can you record audio from plugins live now with this version?

I had asked in the Cakewalk forum and got no response. Being that they didn't include "improved signal routing" or "record plugins in realtime" as a new feature in any of the marketing, I'm sure the answer is no.

It's insane to me that any modern DAW wouldn't do this.

I tried it in X3 and if you choose a VSTi as audio source on an audio track the record button disappears. Kind of strange limitation, not sure why it is there.

There are a few simple workarounds depending on reason for wanting to do it I guess.

It's very easy (and fast) to export the synthtrack to a file and drag that in, there's VST's around that can record and for those with loopback on their cards (=me) it's very easy to choose loop back as source. The last one works very much like if Sonar had that "feature" of course.

[aMUSEd]

Now people have the new version, can you record audio from plugins live now with this version?

I had asked in the Cakewalk forum and got no response. Being that they didn't include "improved signal routing" or "record plugins in realtime" as a new feature in any of the marketing, I'm sure the answer is no.

It's insane to me that any modern DAW wouldn't do this.

Yeah it's been on my wishlist for Sonar since I first got it several versions ago.

[beltrom]

Yeah it's been on my wishlist for Sonar since I first got it several versions ago.

Not implying you don't need it, but I'm a bit curious because I've never even thought of using that functionality. What in the way you prefer to work makes it necessary or beneficial to record the plugin audio real time?

Come to think of it the "workaround" I probably have used the most I didn't even mention. I normally just freeze the track and copy the wave to a new audio track.
Actually I think all the workarounds except loopback are faster than the feature, but I get that's not the point.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Yeah it's been on my wishlist for Sonar since I first got it several versions ago.

Not implying you don't need it, but I'm a bit curious because I've never even thought of using that functionality. What in the way you prefer to work makes it necessary or beneficial to record the plugin audio real time?

Come to think of it the "workaround" I probably have used the most I didn't even mention. I normally just freeze the track and copy the wave to a new audio track.
Actually I think all the workarounds except loopback are faster than the feature, but I get that's not the point.

One reason to have it:

1. I have a multi-output VSTi
2. I want to record the performance in a single pass-through

Right now, Sonar will do unique bounces for each track. This can take a while when doing a non-realtime bounce in something like BFD2/3.

Now, add to that the fact that some plugins like BFD2/3 introduce some element of randomness in which sample they trigger. If I bounce: each different pass for each track could trigger a different layer. This means that Kick Sample 1 might be playing when I bounce the Kick In microphone, but Kick Sample 2 might play when I bounce Kick Out, now multiply that by all the channels.

Recording all outputs in realtime as the track plays would make sure I was capturing 1 performance, on multiple tracks in a single pass.

[beltrom]

Ah, got it. Never wanted to create separate waves for such a situation.
But I see the point.

[Gonga]

Thanks, yes, that's what I've been doing for three years. No more.

Are you saying this is still happening to you in X3?
I haven't seen this, nor have I seen anyone in the forums complain about it (yet).

Maybe wait for the demo - or there's a detailed fix list released - before assuming anything about old bugs...?

Apparently you have 3+ years invested with X1/2... I'd wait for proof that X3 is (or isn't) worth upgrading to, before assuming your needs haven't been addressed.

Just sayin'.

I'm not assuming anything, just reporting factually what the situation has been so far. I've filed formal bug reports and requests for feature fixes, and never heard from anyone about them nor seen them fixed in all this time so far. There were complaints in their forums, and also here, many in fact, and quite a few people also filed formal bug reports and requests to fix it or just for the ability to turn off the key bindings. There were always responses to try things that never worked. For example, you can supposedly turn off the default key bindings for the dock and all the other windows, but doing that never worked for many of us. None of the other suggestions ever did either, such as giving the plug-in focus. For some reason, I don't see the old posts at the Cakewalk forum anymore, possibly because they are gone since the redesign, I don't know. There are a large number of topics with complaints about this issue here at kvr.

Since I've already moved on to Cubase, I have no interest in installing a demo to see whether it's finally been fixed. I have no reason to think it has been after all this time with no response to me nor the problem in X1 and X2, both of which I paid for, along with all the other versions I've bought since (I think) Pro Audio 6 in 1998. I'm hopeful that the guy who reached out to complainers may respond to my post, if not, it'll just be business as usual for Cakewalk and I'll continue being very happy with Cubase.

[Guest231427]

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Now people have the new version, can you record audio from plugins live now with this version?

I had asked in the Cakewalk forum and got no response. Being that they didn't include "improved signal routing" or "record plugins in realtime" as a new feature in any of the marketing, I'm sure the answer is no.

It's insane to me that any modern DAW wouldn't do this.

Well I like to record a built in drum VSTi pattern to audio or MIDI (I don't care which) along with a piano or guitar part to get my new ideas down quickly in the DAW.
Think of if as a sophisticated click track.
When I have got all my other parts down, I go back and do a more permanent drum track if I really need to. Plus as someone said, it's great to do if one has multiple outputs on the drum VSTi.

I recently switched from Samplitude 10 (it was an absolute breeze doing this in Sam) to Sonar X2. I was suckered in by the discount price just before they dumped it. What a big mistake I made.

I also asked on the Cakewalk forum about doing this and was lambasted by two of their 'Platinum Members'
The Cakewalk forum sucks in my opinion. At least there is healthy discussion here at KVR.
I also contacted Cakewalk technical support about this issue. Guess what ? Not a peep from them.

And no, I certainly wont be upgrading to Sonar X3. I will not give Cakewalk another penny of my money.

I am either going to wait for a deal to come up on Samplitude Pro X or look at another DAW (possibly DP8).

Sonar X2 was a huge mistake. I think it is a DAW for people who like fiddling around with software.
If one needs Duckbar to make Sonar work for you, there must be something fundamentally wrong with the base product:
http://www.sonarmods.com/sonarmods/foru ... 697.0.html (http://www.sonarmods.com/sonarmods/forum/index.php/topic,697.0.html)

[winds350]

Here is a problem. I've contacted support 2-3 times and submitted bug reports. Users can't shut off the automatic key bindings such as "A" "B" "C" and "D." When I attempt to enter text into text fields in U-He software, numerous windows pop up instead. The solutions offered me, such as giving keyboard "focus" to the synth, or editing key bindings, both of which I had already tried, do not in fact work at all. This is a big problem for me as well as many others, and has been a problem for at least three years. I would love it if this could be fixed. I have other relatively minor issues, but if this were fixed I might stick with Cakewalk. I am currently learning to use Cubase 7...

Still exists as a problem in X3a. I run in to it trying to name presets when saving in U-He plugins, in trying to type text settings in Melda Production plugins, I think there were a few others that I can't remember now.

It's been there since X1, it's highly reproducible, and it's apparently not worth fixing to Cakewalk.

It can be 'fixed' by using JBridge instead of Cakewalk's Bitbridge, but that leads to other problems such as Novation's automap not working.

[Jace-BeOS]

Finally, I reached out a few folks personally on KVR who were unhappy to try and schedule calls with them to go over some of their issues and see if we could right their experience. I got no takers. Why? I don't think they really care about getting help or talking to us. They obviously have another agenda and direct discussion with us is not one of them.

When did you do this? How? In a public forum thread? (if private, well, that's an unverifiable claim) Also, maybe no one wants to be told "the new version fixed that" again, so they didn't feel like talking to you on the phone, because they're not spending more money to fix problems of bad design (like me).

One more time: Okay, so there's no VST wrapper, great, i get it. No one else has repeated this in days, at least in this thread, because it was cleared up. So, you're repeating too.

[Jace-BeOS]

Cheers. Any idea about R-mix?

Upgraded from X2 Producer to X3 Producer.
Roland R-mix is there and works.

Cheers!

Notice Arossa's answer however - he seems to imply that Studio won't do it.

Can you verify Andrew so there's no misunderstanding?

R-MIX SONAR will only work in SONAR X3 Producer if you previously had it in SONAR X2 Producer. If you upgraded to SONAR X3 Studio, R-MIX SONAR would not work.

Sorry, but that's kind of dumb.

[Jace-BeOS]

A little perspective on the "Cakewalk then vs now" thing... one of the things missing from the discussion is that really, until very recently, almost all daw's could easily push the average user's machines past their limits. A lot of "bugs" across the board could be traced to that issue (and I'm sure other daws were in the same boat). The age of tons or tracks / effects / virtual synths possibly running smoothly on the average machine is really a recent phenomenon. Additionally, as many devs in these forums will attest to the fact that daw software is fairly unique in the amount of third party hardware and software they have to deal with (Apple based products aside). At any given moment in time any moderately complex project is going to be exercising a ton of third party code (and worse, drivers!).

So while I've had my fair share of issue with CW over the years I look at it through a lens with the above in mind. This isn't to apologize for CW but if you were having issues 8 years ago with CW, there's probably a good chance you would have been having issues on any other daw as well. Accordingly, the later in the daw evolution/revolution you switched probably the better any other daw will look to you. Lastly I think this also explains a lot about why some people swear they have no issues while others have tons with any given release. Stability is unfortunately a lowest common denominator game... it only takes one flaky driver/plug/whatever to make a daw look like crap.

Um, i don't really think this is relevant. Stability (or lack thereof) and usage/behavior bugs have nothing to do with how powerful a computer is. i have had the same Windows machine since about 2007 or 2008. i had no problems on that computer with Cubase 4.5 (except for lame menu layouts) or with Tracktion 2; but honestly, i used Sonar way more. Yeah, drivers are often a problem, and can affect stability. But that's irrelevant to the bugs people have brought up (and the design foolishness i've complained about, which apparently is all in the past now...). My Macbook Pro 3,1 is less powerful, with less RAM (by half) than my Windows machine, but software runs more reliably on it (except Cubase 4.5, which crashes more on Mac). Better drivers? Unified platform? Whatever. i have some complaints with Logic's design, but not NEARLY as much as with Sonar's. i haven't been talking about pushing hardware past its limits and neither have any other Sonar criticisms that i've noticed.

[chrisby]

A little perspective on the "Cakewalk then vs now" thing... one of the things missing from the discussion is that really, until very recently, almost all daw's could easily push the average user's machines past their limits. A lot of "bugs" across the board could be traced to that issue (and I'm sure other daws were in the same boat). The age of tons or tracks / effects / virtual synths possibly running smoothly on the average machine is really a recent phenomenon. Additionally, as many devs in these forums will attest to the fact that daw software is fairly unique in the amount of third party hardware and software they have to deal with (Apple based products aside). At any given moment in time any moderately complex project is going to be exercising a ton of third party code (and worse, drivers!).

So while I've had my fair share of issue with CW over the years I look at it through a lens with the above in mind. This isn't to apologize for CW but if you were having issues 8 years ago with CW, there's probably a good chance you would have been having issues on any other daw as well. Accordingly, the later in the daw evolution/revolution you switched probably the better any other daw will look to you. Lastly I think this also explains a lot about why some people swear they have no issues while others have tons with any given release. Stability is unfortunately a lowest common denominator game... it only takes one flaky driver/plug/whatever to make a daw look like crap.

Um, i don't really think this is relevant. Stability (or lack thereof) and usage/behavior bugs have nothing to do with how powerful a computer is. i have had the same Windows machine since about 2007 or 2008. i had no problems on that computer with Cubase 4.5 (except for lame menu layouts) or with Tracktion 2; but honestly, i used Sonar way more. Yeah, drivers are often a problem, and can affect stability. But that's irrelevant to the bugs people have brought up (and the design foolishness i've complained about, which apparently is all in the past now...). My Macbook Pro 3,1 is less powerful, with less RAM (by half) than my Windows machine, but software runs more reliably on it (except Cubase 4.5, which crashes more on Mac). Better drivers? Unified platform? Whatever. i have some complaints with Logic's design, but not NEARLY as much as with Sonar's. i haven't been talking about pushing hardware past its limits and neither have any other Sonar criticisms that i've noticed.

Well I think you're kind of missing my point. When you throttle a machines CPU, max it's I/O bandwidth, don't service your video card's GPU, exhaust it's memory, etc, etc.... software in general will start to misbehave. Up until about 5 years ago it was really really easy to do any of these things with most DAWs. You can't tell me that running 60 audio tracks with 15 instances of Amplitube, and ten softsynths, and 70 effects plugs ran smoothly on Cubase running on a single core Pentium w/ 512Mb RAM in 2008.

So that's half my point. The other is just the sheer complexity of the number of permutations you have to QA given all the third party code that DAWs might encounter at runtime. The QA testset becomes (N-Supported OS versions) X (N-Plugins) X (N-Softsynths) X (N-Video Cards) X (N-Audio Cards).... well hopefully you see where I'm going. Anyone that has developed commercial software will tell you that it is a fairly unique case. You simply can't possibly test all the combinations you will encounter. And for that matter even if you did it is a moving target as next week there will be new vst's/vsti's/drivers/etc.

Again, I'm not apologizing for CW, maybe other DAW companies do do a better job QA'ing their stuff (which I think might be your point). While I don't know if that's true or not, I would say that if you don't recognize the above then you are missing a big part of the picture regardless of what DAW you used during the last 10 years or so....