morals and money

[spaceman]

like i said my family get fed
and much more besides
if you had attended the event or seen the photographs you would have seen that i actually have quite a nice life and shit.perhaps if it had been as you seem to imagine the difference between eating and not eating i would have thought differently

I didn't mean you're short on cash.. I was just trying to put things in perspective. So you'd be selling a tune to a company that is going to build a new park.. well ho ho.. I completely respect your opinion not to get involved but I think your decision is based on misplaced morals

I'm not going to get in to this any further because I can imagine the semi-christian save-the-world save-the-trees let's-all-be-one-happy-family-surrounded-by-trees crap replies already

there's a lot of blahblah here but who actually does the slightest bit here to help the environment (pushing your morality crap on a forum doesn't count btw, it helps f**k all)

[vurt]

eh well,i cycle or walk most places these days
i protest wherever possible when greenbelt areas are threatened(which is why i had so much problem with this )
i tend to use biodegradable stuff wherever possible
i make my own compost

anything else?

[spaceman]

wow, I'm gobsmacked by your stance on that, spaceman.

I guess being a stoner and an ecologist / conservationist / someone who cares for their surroundings don't go so hand-in-hand after all.

I am,
but not selling a tune to a company won't make any difference, not even the slightest

I think you're missing the point though.
It's all about self respect.

I wouldn't respect myself if I sold out to a cause I objected to.
Personal morals, see?

I agree.. but I'm saying the morals are wrong to start with.. but that's only my opinion

And if we all thought the way you seem to, nobody would protest or stand up to these guys and far more shit'd go down on this planet.
We each have to do what we can, where we can, for the sake of our childrens future, however little that may be.

that's my point, NULL != a little .. it's NOTHING
if you want to help "a little" get involved in charity that actually does anything apart from preaching the f**king gospel but but sitting on your arse otherwise

There'll always be contradictions (cars for instance), that's life though, eh? If there was a cleaner, safer way of getting around (and I'm not talking about cycling round the corner) easily available...

absolutely right you are,
we have to understand that we can't keep hold of nature as we know it today, evolution has gotten rid of that possibility f**king ages ago

[Spe3D]

a meteoroid will sort it.

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[spaceman]

eh well,i cycle or walk most places these days
i protest wherever possible when greenbelt areas are threatened(which is why i had so much problem with this )
i tend to use biodegradable stuff wherever possible
i make my own compost

anything else?

that's a hundred times more than most people, and those things DO make a difference. Not selling a tune won't.. and I would put the 'damage' that park will do to nature in perspective. It also give thousands of people the ability to relax and leave the stressful life behind them for a while

[spaceman]

eh well,i cycle or walk most places these days
i protest wherever possible when greenbelt areas are threatened(which is why i had so much problem with this )
i tend to use biodegradable stuff wherever possible
i make my own compost

anything else?

..and I wasn't judging you vurt.. not all replies here are directed personaly to you, you know

I kind of expected you to do these things, I do my bit too (and a lot more)

[vurt]

i never said park i said leisure complex



from the video something akin to this





as in big leaisure centre not park or green in any way

either way im happy with the decision i already made
you questioning my morals wont lose me any sleep
doin this would have
go figure,vurt has feelins

[spaceman]

all respect to you vurt

at least your not a hypocrite

[vurt]

nope im an atheist

[spaceman]

nope im an atheist

so am I.. a nature loving, green smoking, reality-tunnel-widening atheist who tries to put everything in perspective without reflex reasoning or acting
only the occasional rant

[Spe3D]

nope im an atheist

so am I.. a nature loving, green smoking, reality-tunnel-widening atheist who tries to put everything in perspective without reflex reasoning or acting
only the occasional rant

Not easy, I am reactive to certain things, but taking a step back and thinking it out is normally better, though not allways

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[spaceman]

nope im an atheist

so am I.. a nature loving, green smoking, reality-tunnel-widening atheist who tries to put everything in perspective without reflex reasoning or acting
only the occasional rant

Not easy, I am reactive to certain things, but taking a step back and thinking it out is normally better, though not allways

as long as one keeps in mind that one might be wrong, even when one's sure he's right, will help one a lot in one's ability to judge reality, understand that what looks right in one's reality tunnel might not be right in someone else's.. and who's to say which reality is the right one?

but I'm starting to sound like a f**king preacher now so I'm just going to sleep a bit in the office and then go home and smoke some pot



see, I'm setting my priorities straight

[Karbon L. Forms]

spaceman said "we have to understand that we can't keep hold of nature as we know it today, evolution has gotten rid of that possibility f**king ages ago"

Exactly. We are a part of nature too. Even the parts of us that develop nuclear weapons and cars etc. All nature. There is no such thing as unnatural; If it's not natural it won't happen. Pollution is as much a part of nature as pandas and green shit is.
And take Giant Pandas. What a f**king useless twat of an animal! It's a f**king great bear with great bastarding teeth, but it won't eat bugger all except eucalyptis leaves! And they can only be arsed to shag once every epoch! Quite cute, I agree, but evolution has them in it's sites. Bye bye!

[Spe3D]

nope im an atheist

so am I.. a nature loving, green smoking, reality-tunnel-widening atheist who tries to put everything in perspective without reflex reasoning or acting
only the occasional rant

Not easy, I am reactive to certain things, but taking a step back and thinking it out is normally better, though not allways

as long as one keeps in mind that one might be wrong, even when one's sure he's right, will help one a lot in one's ability to judge reality, understand that what looks right in one's reality tunnel might not be right in someone else's.. and who's to say which reality is the right one?

but I'm starting to sound like a f**king preacher now so I'm just going to sleep a bit in the office and then go home and smoke some pot



see, I'm setting my priorities straight

Outerspace office? - I don't see the space station in that sig of yours

Smoking with your kit on - well you won't need the pot

I agree with what you say btw

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[Shane Sanders]

Interesting thread, and I'm glad vurt made his decision based on the personal consequences of the action itself. It seemed to me that he just didn't want to ally himself with the larger action. He didn't seem to be confused about whether doing the music was actually contributing to the thing he objected to, but rather did not want to support it materially even in a secondary way. I totally understand that myself.

One of the interesting things about the thread for me was observing how the reasoning process behind the moral decision was presented and either agreed with or challenged.

Oddly, I think vurt and spaceman would be more philosophically consistent if they adopted an agnostic stance, rather than an atheistic stance. This is just an observation, not a personal criticism. Here's why I think that: Because it does not seem like either of you would really be comfortable with the logical extension of the true atheist worldview. A genuine atheist worldview leads to a completely relativist stance on all issues in life, including moral ones, if you are consistent on all levels of behavior. An atheist, from a philosophical point of view, can consistently say, "I'll kill trees and ponds because it puts money in my pocket and I'll keep doing so even if it hurts you." Why would it matter, morally speaking, if he burned up a whole forest and all the people living on it if there is no God and no objective moral principle "out there" in the universe to restrain action? You see my point? All moral-like actions would be merely a personal preference like one's favorite beer. Reality does not seem to be so, and this is why most of us don't behave like "atheists" even when we profess to be so.

Did you know that, from a relativist worldview, the ultimate human hero of that point of view turns out to be a sociopath? Why? Because a sociopath acts and thinks according to a personal, relative base of desires and thinking. On the other hand, a person who understands that there are objective moral rules in the universe (such as murder is wrong), ends up being one who is self-sacrificial, one who puts his own needs secondary to the needs of others. I think its a useful way of comparing the two worldviews.

Any time you hear the words "ought" or "should", you know that someone is about to present a moral rule of one kind or another. People don't usually behave like atheists. Instead, they seek justice when their stereo is stolen or their children are hurt, regardless of their atheism. Our moral intuitions seem to be telling us that there is an objective law above our 'man-made' laws, and thus at least an agnostic stance would put you in a spot where you could say, "Well, I don't think there's a God or objective truth, but since I myself don't have infinite knowledge, I can't be sure. But anywho, I'm personally going to behave like God isn't there and hope I'm right." This, in the end, would be more consistent with the choices and inclinations that you both exhibit (which seem to include an actual sense of right and wrong).

Again, no personal attacks are in the above text. I just wanted to unpack a few ideas and take a quick look at them. The issue of objective truth is dear to me, and I haven't done it justice in my explanation.