KVR Audio

jjb13 · Post by **jjb13** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 7:21 pm

I am currently and unfortunately using altec lansing 5.1 pc speakers for mixing. With some upcoming family circumstances straining the budget to its maximum, it is highly improbable that I would be able to, in the forseeable future, chunk 200-300 bones out of the family food money to buy a decent set of studio monitors - although it is a long term goal.
My question is, if one wanted to spend the time, would one be able to record the output of one's speakers, and compare to the actual spectral output of the source to find where the pc speakers are "coloring: the sound? And if so, could one simply place a specifically defined eq setting that corrects those deficiencies into a relatively flat response over the master channel while mixing so that everything sounds flat?
I know that it would be far from perfect, but could I hypothetically get better results if I took the time to do this? It seems too simple to me, so I am betting that my logic is faulty somewhere...
Thanks
JB

Muff Wiggler · Post by **Muff Wiggler** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 7:26 pm

i'm no expert, but I suspect that it would be difficult to determine where the coloring is coming from:

the sound card

the environment

the application (as has been endlessly debated, different 'host' programs all have a different sound when fed the same content - has to do with the way the mixer channels are 'summed' I believe)

the thing that's recording your speaker's output

etc

Again, I'm no expert but I suspect that what you propose is a theoretical possibility only, not a practical one, sorry.

Of course I'll be very interested if I'm wrong... let's hear from all you expert audio geeks now...

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 7:38 pm

Google Auralisation or Auralization.

jjb13 · Post by **jjb13** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:15 pm

Muff -

Thanks for the response! Good point on the microphone or whatever records the output - but with the others, even if it is impossible to discover whether it is the card, speaker or host that is coloring, wouldn't the "sum total" of all coloring still be represented by what comes out of the speaker - which can be analyzed (I think), and hypothetically compensated for by equalization?

Nuff -

I did google that and it came up with a lot of hits for science journals, etc., that are a little over my head. While I suspect that they all are able to somewhat provide a partial answer to my question, are there any articles in particular that you have seen that may be in more laymen's terms?

Thanks again gents...
JB

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:48 pm

Ok, here we go...

It is possible (up to a point) using that universal panacea convolution.
The basic principal can be thought of as pre-distorting the signal equal and opposite to that introduced by the speaker.
There are problems, lots of them.
1. The individual speaker(s) have to be measured making it impractical for mass production.
2. The measuring mic and electronics must of an incredibly high standard or they will introduce their own colourations.
3. Any noise in the measuring environment will be added to the noise floor of the finished system. This can be ameliorated somewhat by windowing but the measurements should ideally be made in an anechoic chamber.
4. If you make the measurements in a chamber the speaker system will measure flat in that chamber.
5. If you make the measurements in the room the speakers are due to be used in the technique can flatten the spectrum at the exact place in the room where the mic was placed. Headclamps recommended for serious listening.
Also see point 3.
6. You can't buck physics. All speakers (bar some exotic plasma devices) have mass and therefore inertia. Much of their colouration comes from the fact they can't start and stop as fast as they should. Convolution can't help here. Many of us love electrostatics because they suffer much less in this regard.
Also you are never going to get 120 dB at 1 meter at 40 hz from a 4 inch driver no matter what you do.

Seems like a hopeless case? Well if you can make it work there are a lot of benefits. Distortion can be drastically lowered and a side effect of the process is that the individual drivers are perfectly phase aligned leading to a rock solid stereo image.

A number of companies (I believe Dynaudio use the technique on some of their big monitor systems) are working on it but don't hold yer breath for it to trickle down to home studio level kit.

Hope this helps.

DevonB · Post by **DevonB** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:55 pm

Or the short answer - spend time making music instead of worrying about this. When you got ths dosh, go get some new monitors. In short, you're not going to fix the problem with some EQ tricks.

Devon

Alive In Chernobyl · Post by **Alive In Chernobyl** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:59 pm

Earthworks has very good time aligned monitors. Tannoy does too. Not home-studio level! For a low price there will always be corners cut.

jjb13 · Post by **jjb13** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:05 pm

nuff - you da man. Thanks for the explanation, some was out of my league, but I get the basic gist -that its probably not worth the hassle. Guess I will have to look into a decent pair of monitors 10 years from now

Dev - I appreciate the concern - I'm doing plenty of music making, thank you

. Just trying to get the music to sound better - sounds great (to me

)on PC, not so great in the car or other places that I listen. Always looking for ways to get a better sound, that's all, and thought their might be an admittedly imperfect temp solution to correct things that are largely out of my control for now. Indeed I will go the monitor route when I get the scratch!!

Much appreciated all!
JB

Alive In Chernobyl · Post by **Alive In Chernobyl** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:07 pm

Many home theatre speakers will give better quality at same price than what stores sell as studio monitor. This will give you good reference to home system too for better translation.

If budget is a concern this much look into consumer theatre speakers

B&W make very good speakers at low price compared to m-audio-krk-event-roland-yamaha at the same price

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:10 pm

Alive In Chernobyl wrote:B&W make very good speakers at low price compared to m-audio-krk-event-roland-yamaha at the same price

This is so true.

DevonB · Post by **DevonB** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:49 pm

jjb13 wrote:Dev - I appreciate the concern - I'm doing plenty of music making, thank you . Just trying to get the music to sound better - sounds great (to me )on PC, not so great in the car or other places that I listen.

Always remember, the usual reason why a mix sounds bad is the nut sitting in the seat.

It does take practice, and I still need plenty of it myself.

Maybe I'll be good by the time I die. At any rate, still got to look at the sound card, the speakers, the amp for the speakers, and the room. Still, even without all of those, you learn how to compensate in other ways. If it sounds bass heavy in teh car, you turn down the bass until it sounds right in the car. Just keep at it, and learning tricks.

Devon

Sidhu · Post by **Sidhu** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:46 pm

Google Auralisation or Auralization.

http://www.catt.se/

There was this monitor thread sometime back where someone mentioned that a particular model of Altec Lansing speakers actually were very flat and campared performence to much higher end monitors...

jjb13 · Post by **jjb13** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:46 pm

DevonB wrote:Always remember, the usual reason why a mix sounds bad is the nut sitting in the seat.

Ahhh, the old "linkage error between the chair and the keyboard". A wise man you are!

JB

freeztar · Post by **freeztar** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:55 pm

nuffink wrote:
Alive In Chernobyl wrote:B&W make very good speakers at low price compared to m-audio-krk-event-roland-yamaha at the same price
This is so true.

Which ones in particular? The bookshelf speakers (DM303)?

Is this possible (EQing to compensate for spkr coloration)?