Depeche Mode - Enjoy the Silence Bmajor Chord on Cminor Key

[ecsmix]

Hi guys,

How are you?

I was wondering the theory behind the Bmajor chord where it came from?

Cm /--- 8x ----\
Intro: | Cm | Eb |
| i | III |

/---------- 2x --------\
Verse | Cm | Ebm | Ab | - |
| i | iii | VI | - |

Chorus | Fm | Ab | Cm | Eb/Bb |
| v | VI | i | III |

| Fm | Ab | Cm | B |
| v | VI | i | #VII|

#VII would be the best analysis, which mode, scale it came from?

How a composer would think of using a chord like that after the tonic?

Would considered a modulation?

What would be your interpretation of the Bmajor chord on the chorus over a Eb melody, after Cminor chord(i).

Thanks.

[jancivil]

...

[BertKoor]

Could be basic trial and error and "Oh, that's a good one, different, what."

That. As a composer you sometimes struggle with what chord should come next and not one really seems to fit. So take the less obvious (slightly dissonant) choice can be the way out.

Modulation, I wouldn't call it that. Modulation is like moving house, but this was just a visit to the neighbours.

[ecsmix]

Modulation, I wouldn't call it that. Modulation is like moving house, but this was just a visit to the neighbours.

Exactly, which neighbours?

Bmajor does not exist on all the church modes, so it couldn't be modal interchange.

That's the reason of this question, where it came from?

A jazz friend told the Bmajor came from C diminished scale..C: C, D, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, A, B, C

But the song doesn't have any jazzy extensions it's a regular synth pop song, so I don't think the composer knew about that, several years ago.

[jancivil]

Modulation, I wouldn't call it that. Modulation is like moving house, but this was just a visit to the neighbours.

Exactly, which neighbours?

Bmajor does not exist on all the church modes, so it couldn't be modal interchange.

That's the reason of this question, where it came from?

A jazz friend told the Bmajor came from C diminished scale..C: C, D, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, A, B, C

But the song doesn't have any jazzy extensions

We can't know. Ask the person who came up with it.
That's not what modal interchange means, btw. All that term represents is borrowing from the [parallel] 'minor mode' (terminology independent of 'church modes') while you're in major or vice versa.
[...]
forget it, you don't listen.

[deastman]

Not that it helps in any way, but here is the original demo version of the song.

[AsPeeXXXVIII]

My only guess is that the song was written utilizing a harmonic minor scale rather than a natural harmonic one. And the seventh of the harmonic C minor scale is a major B chord - at least I think it is.

[ecsmix]

the seventh of the harmonic C minor scale is a major B chord

Using that scale the B chord would be Bmajb5 (B-D#-F)

Another cool explanation from Vladan, needless to say, a little jazzy as well:

Tune is in Cm, which is relative of Eb.
V of Eb is Bb,
V of Bb is F and
Tritone of F is B., which is #V of Eb,
It is not uncommon move in any genre to go from #V to V to ...

[jancivil]

My only guess is that the song was written utilizing a harmonic minor scale rather than a natural harmonic one. And the seventh of the harmonic C minor scale is a major B chord - at least I think it is.

C harmonic minor = C D Eb F G Ab B.
vii = B D F. The vii7 will be B D F Ab.

B diminished, B diminished seventh.

"V of Bb is F and
Tritone of F is B., which is #V of Eb, It is not uncommon move in any genre to go from #V to V to ..."

That's quite tortured, frankly. Occam's Razor: the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation is.

You could for that matter simply notice as I gave you, how the common tone Eb may be harmonized by Cb major, eg., Eb Gb Cb. Yes it is VI of Eb minor, which is six flats; C minor is three flats. So it's distant.
But don't call it #V. Seriously. It introduces complications that are entirely unnecessary and it's ignorant. #V to V _is_ uncommon. bVI to V, fairly normal. However this is not a move to V of Eb, nota bene.
Spelling is actually meaningful.
My advice is to investigate how that is. You may be less likely to make mistakes eg: "Using that scale the B chord would be Bmajb5 (B-D#-F)"
Eb _is_ part of the scale. D# is not. I'll demonstrate why this is erroneous: There is no sharp note in a key of 3 flats (or any normal key with flats in the signature).
The triads are constructed by thirds: B D F. Simple. So the interval you came up with trying to justify this chord is in fact a diminished fourth: B to Eb. As pertains to C minor, or Eb major. Eb minor has a Cb so you can have a Cb Eb Gb triad. Flat five here is Gbb.
(Now jazz people at this point may prefer F for that, confer F A Cb Eb as the V7b5 of Eb, hence its flat five substitute is Cb Eb 'F' 'A'; but "#V to V" is out to lunch. Depeche Mode does not resemble jazz in the least, anyway.)

Leaving this one up as factual, useful information per se.

[someone called simon]

If you learn music in a mostly self-taught way, say, playing chords on a guitar or piano, random things often happen that you just like the sound of. Looking for a theory framework to help you understand quirks like this is usually pointless, I would say, in this kind of pop context.

As an example, I used to play with a singer songwriter who had a song, part of which went from C via an intermediate chord to Am. As is common on guitar, she played a B bass note on the way from C to A. Normally this would be under a G chord, or an E7 chord, both of which would lead into Am satisfactorily. But she played a B7 chord, the 'small chord', not the barre chord version. B7 is not in the key of C, and does not really lead into Am in an obvious fashion. I am 99% sure this was not intentional, she just played a chord over the transitional B bass note, and it happened to be B7. And I struggled with maybe telling her it was 'wrong'. Thankfully I didn't, and it just became part of the sound of the song.

A lot of this kind of thing happens with unschooled musicians (one of which I am myself)

[jancivil]

Looking for a theory framework to help you understand quirks like this is usually pointless, I would say, in this kind of pop context.

This really is 'nuff said' honestly. The struggle to justify the thing is producing numerous mistakes so I felt like wasting some time with that.

[ecsmix]

Theory is to avoid trial and error and explains everything.

Everything has an explanation why it works and sounds good.

[Musicologo]

The music theory for this is understanding how the song came to existence into the first place: the concepts and behaviours of the ones in this musical practice. Ethnography is the only way to find this in the first place. Since we can't do that right now we might see what similar data is available from the ones who were there or talked about it:

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=7130

It seems this was a ballad whose first version was composed on a keyboard (organ or piano the source is not consistent), not guitar, neither notation. When you're playing/composing on a keyboard moving from one chord to another by neighbouring notes and using common tones is the most common thing to do. Therefore my best guess is sliding of fingers half a tone from G to F# and C to B keeping the common tone (Eb/D#) and he just kept his hand in the bass note (Eb) as well, since Cm and B share a common note and the other two are half-step away.

I don't believe Martin was thinking of degrees or harmonies, he was probably just listening and feeling it and it sounded pleasant to him. Since the movement is smooth and is consistent within this practice it works. To know for sure one would need to ask him or have footage of the moment.

[ecsmix]

Yes, smooth voice leading...he wasn't thinking, ok, but the theory explains it.

So we can apply it in our own compositions.

[someone called simon]

Theory is to avoid trial and error and explains everything.

Everything has an explanation why it works and sounds good.

Ha ha, ok. All the best things in life come from avoidance of trial and error.