Catalina: Apple turns macOS into a closed platform; many audio-devs warned from the upgrade

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

...

[JCJR]

Bingo. You know Windows like the back of your hand. I'm willing to bet you didn't code for mac until after the Intel transition at the earliest 2007 probably later.

I programmed pc from 1995 but only programmed Mac from 1986 to 2012. 26 years Mac programming probably isn't sufficient experience on which to base a valid opinion.

[fmr]

Yep. It’s been part of their past on KVR - remember all the threads about how people were really pissed at UAC, or how everyone hated MS for removing the start menu?

Yes, it was stupid, wasn't it? That's why MS did a step back, and reinstated Start menu in Windows 10. And he original flat GUI and icons have been enriched with transparencies and shadows, BECAUSE OF USERS OPINIONS.

There was even a buzz because of the first version of the Trashcan ICON in Windows 10, and MS changed it right away. And it was AN ICON.

[Markus Krause]

Bingo. You know Windows like the back of your hand. I'm willing to bet you didn't code for mac until after the Intel transition at the earliest 2007 probably later.

I programmed pc from 1995 but only programmed Mac from 1986 to 2012. 26 years Mac programming probably isn't sufficient experience on which to base a valid opinion.

obviously i also don't have sufficient experience on which to base a valid opinion...

Developing audio software since 1993
Full-time developer. Software Engineer.
Class A grade diploma (LMU Munich, Elite University)
Released over 20 well-known audio products

DOS coding experience:
1993-2000

Windows coding experience:
2001-2019

Mac coding experience:
2004-2019

[fmr]

F'sure! However, as per Urs' claim (that every Windows update has broken things for them)

This is because they didn't place their plugin data files in the proper folder in the first place, by default, because of Steinberg's fuckup defaulting the VST2 plugin folder to Program Files/Steinberg/VstPlugins, which is not a user-writeable folder since Vista at least.

^^^ THIS ^^^

I always chose a customized folder in Documents the first time I installed a U-He plug-in. After the first installation, that folder is written in the Registry, and subsequent installations are already pointing to that same folder. Never had a problem.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Update:

I received another email of Apple. Apple's support for developers was friendly.
Apple is definitely aware of their compatibility problems.
They offered me assistance to get past the notarisation process. This is nice, but not helpful in my case, because i was able to solve it for myself in the meanwhile.

--------

I also reported the two-year-old and critical bug with the auval tool (again) which requires users to reboot the Mac to make Audiounits visible in Logic.
I added references to make it clear that it does not only affect our software, but software from a vast range (all?) companies which create v2 Audiounits as well as nearly all users which use Audiounits.
https://forum.juce.com/t/installing-new ... erra/26753
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=531117
viewtopic.php?t=502437
https://gist.github.com/olilarkin/8f378 ... f47061d70f

The real problem will remain for developers as well as for the end users: It's the lack of downward compatibility of MacOS in the past and in the future

-----

Concerning the downward compatibility of Windows:

I got very good private contacts to a high-position Microsoft employee. She told me that Microsoft puts a huge effort in keeping Windows downward compatible. As a developer who is developing for Microsoft platforms since 1993 i can confirm this. I never experienced serious problems with compatibility since then.

I am glad that you are being offered help from Apple, for everybody's sake

I have to say that I find your perspective on the Audio Units bug as "critical", as interesting. From a user's point-of-view (Only speaking for myself), I found the issue to be of little consequence. I've done many fresh installs since the 'Tiger' days, and so am used to the issue not being there. However, even my 7.5 year-old Macbook Pro can restart back to a usable desktop in just over 20 seconds. I just restarted after a few plugin installs, and just kept going. Didn't think anything more of it

And as for backwards-compatibility? It is irrelevant how far back they've managed to keep it compatible, that won't stop them dropping it if the advantages of doing so outweighed the negatives

[Skupje]

Apple is going to make a move away from Intel and do their own CPU's, maybe this way is preparation for x86 to completely be gone in the near future?

[fmr]

Apple is going to make a move away from Intel and do their own CPU's, maybe this way is preparation for x86 to completely be gone in the near future?

[BlueprintInc]

I have to say that I find your perspective on the Audio Units bug as "critical", as interesting. From a user's point-of-view (Only speaking for myself), I found the issue to be of little consequence. I've done many fresh installs since the 'Tiger' days, and so am used to the issue not being there. However, even my 7.5 year-old Macbook Pro can restart back to a usable desktop in just over 20 seconds. I just restarted after a few plugin installs, and just kept going. Didn't think anything more of it

auval has more bugs than just the restart thing (which becomes annyoing enough when you compile plugins and may have to restart every 30 minutes). And I think that is critical too because it is the most important tool on macOS to verify your plugins validity.

I can understand the anger out there with the way Apple suddenly drops things, but it's not like we didn't know 32-bit was going away, or OpenGL is going away, or PPCs were going away, or Carbon was going away... Well, you get the idea. They do tend to give plenty of time for developers to rework their code.

Sure, if you're willing to rewrite the same stuff everytime or like to work with 2 complete different frameworks. Things like OpenGL juts did work on both, in near futur is will be even worse because Metal is Mac only and another new fundamental library. I really hope they move away from Intel because then they're not relevant enough anymore.

Anyways I'd like to code new plugins or features instead in that time. I'm willing to do changes or rewrite something for 1 time (like with Windows HDPI support), then I want it to work, not going to touch it again with the very next update. That's a major difference. Besides that they give time to rewrite stuff during their OS beta stage just to throw it away at release. The very annoying thing is the constant change and breaking.

[machinesworking]

obviously i also don't have sufficient experience on which to base a valid opinion...

That was never the point. The point was people tend to feel more comfortable in the language they learn first. This is backed up by you being upset about an issue you wrote support on and figured out before they replied.

I get it, Apple are harder to work with than Microsoft. What I don't get is this public bashing? Personally I don't own any Tone 2 products, and it's looking like unless I switch to Windows I never will. I cannot believe that you can write good 'angry' code. You're very very likely to do the least possible to ensure compatibility of your products on the OS X platform with the attitude you're exhibiting here? This is completely counter productive to any sort of good public relations.
There are distinct advantages to me as an end user to working in OS X, better MIDI handling, audio driver handling etc. I'm not ready to give them up because Catalina presents challenges to developers. Especially considering it's obvious that in the end Catalina will offer new sources of revenue with the (supposedly) transparent transition of iOS apps to the OS X platform.

You guys come up with a petition or some other rational way to get the attention of Apple I'm all for it. I'm not jumping on Catalina anytime soon, and I do plan on keeping this old 09 Mac Pro around for 32 bit software and the like. Most of us in the audio field know better than to adopt early.

[Markus Krause]

Please note that this is the developer forum 'DSP and Plug-in Development'. It does not target to end users. This is a place where developers discuss with other developers.

Currently many developers are very upset, because of the way they got treated by Apple in the past and will get treated in the future. It is not only bad for the devs, but also very bad for the end users. Apple needs some public pressure, because otherwise things will never change. That's why a couple of devs started expose the flaws to the public.

[fmr]

obviously i also don't have sufficient experience on which to base a valid opinion...

That was never the point. The point was people tend to feel more comfortable in the language they learn first. This is backed up by you being upset about an issue you wrote support on and figured out before they replied.

He started three years before, and he already has 15 years of experience coding for Mac. When he started, OS X was in its infancy. Do you think those three years make such a great difference?

Apple commitment with pro audio was high level back then (apparently). The had bought Emagic just a couple of years before, had launched OS X 10.2 with the Core Audio and Core MIDI layers, and it was kind of a honeymoon between Apple and Pro Audio manufacturers.

But things changed...

I get it, Apple are harder to work with than Microsoft.

You think?

There are distinct advantages to me as an end user to working in OS X, better MIDI handling, audio driver handling etc.

Care to give more details about what you are referring specifically? As a user of both systems, I have not experiencing any problems either with MIDI handling or audio driver handling. But that's maybe because I have a real MIDI interface (MOTU MIDI Express XT) and a good audio interface (RME Hammerfall DSP). My experience is similar in both systems, both quite capable of professional work. I have no complains regarding macOS in that chapter, but neither do I regarding Windows.

BTW: When Apple bought Emagic, one of the things they did was stop the hardware manufacturing. I had two Emagic amt8 MIDI interfaces, a great interface. Although it would meant just like a day for the main developer to come up with drivers for Windows 7, Apple never authorized to update them, which means I now have a pair of quite capable MIDI interfaces collecting dust.

[Zaphod (giancarlo)]

We don't need a topic Windows vs Mac. Yes apple is great, core audio is awesome
And I agree about the language
Anyway, the point is not about how much difficult is coding on Mac. The point is about new restrictions, because they could put developers out of business. I think nobody here is looking for the end of the platform, and this is the reason why several developers are so passionate.

[Etienne1973]

The point is about new restrictions, because they could put developers out of business.

Developers who still have products with 32Bit code in 2019?

[fese]

F'sure! However, as per Urs' claim (that every Windows update has broken things for them)

This is because they didn't place their plugin data files in the proper folder in the first place, by default, because of Steinberg's fuckup defaulting the VST2 plugin folder to Program Files/Steinberg/VstPlugins, which is not a user-writeable folder since Vista at least.

I fail to see why that's a Steinberg fuckup in this case - VST2s are just dlls and dlls belong somewhere in "Program Files". "Steinberg\VSTPlugins" is debatable, but in general, its the right place for libraries. Other plugin formats are in Program Files\Common Files, e.g. VST3 or AAX and also write-protected, with good reason.
Plugins should never put anything that needs to be user-writable into "Program Files". That belongs somewhere under %USERPROFILE%.