KVR Audio

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:44 pm

Oh I see what you mean now! Right, that does feel inconsistent. Let's see if we can get this fixed for 1.8.2!

Arovane · Post by **Arovane** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:14 pm

Hello im on Win7 Bitwig 3.3.1
When i ad a Bitwig Classic LFO with Random.settings to for example the Feedback slider........from 1-100 then when i reopen the Project the Feedback knob starts at 20 or an other value. I mean the range is then not 1-100.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:49 pm

Wouldn't this be a matter of how Bitwig initializes things when loading the project? Since it physically sets the parameter value with its modulators...

Arovane · Post by **Arovane** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:31 pm

They same is in Omnisphere 2.6.4 and they said it must be solved by the Developer

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:35 pm

That is highly suspicious to me. They are setting which automation values are sent to the plugin...

bboxdw · Post by **bboxdw** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:51 pm

Arovane wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:14 pm Hello im on Win7 Bitwig 3.3.1
When i ad a Bitwig Classic LFO with Random.settings to for example the Feedback slider........from 1-100 then when i reopen the Project the Feedback knob starts at 20 or an other value. I mean the range is then not 1-100.

I just checked this out and was able to duplicate it with Bitwig 3.3.1 and Surge 1.8.1.9de9336 on Win 10, but going beyond the classic LFO random. In the attached Bitwig project, I've set up an instance of Surge with 4 Bitwig LFOs (classic LFO quantized random, classic LFO random, classic LFO sine, and beat LFO triangle), each set up modulate one of Surge's 4 filter cutoff parameters. Each one is set up for bipolar modulation of 0.5 from the default value (corresponding to the center/0 point of the Bitwig parameter modulation knobs).

I've typed "cutoff" into the search box so you can easily see the settings before and after opening the plugin window.
What I've observed is that the proper settings are retained upon saving and reopening the project, until the plugin window is opened. At that point, all the modulators' "base" values are changed to a setting other than the default value. Each time you close/reopen the project and then open the Surge window, you'll get new base values.

I'll also submit this to BW support.

Arovane · Post by **Arovane** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:10 am

THANK YOU @ bboxdw !!!
I hope they will take this thing seriously

baconpaul · Post by **baconpaul** » Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:06 am

It might very well be us also. Let me open a GitHub issue in surge. The order of create and message is tricky in the VST3 (I want to port to JUCE so this all goes away and I don't have to think about it any more... but that's not a 'next release' type thing) but maybe I can debug it.

https://github.com/surge-synthesizer/surge/issues/3783

there's the GitHub issue. I tagged it for our 182 release which means at least I will figure out that I can't fix it before we do another release!

baconpaul · Post by **baconpaul** » Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:07 am

Oh and thank you' Excellent bug report.

baconpaul · Post by **baconpaul** » Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:21 am

modified.zip

I tried it on mac bitwig 331 and can sometimes reproduce what you see.

Here's a slightly simpler one that lets you hear it also. If I open the UI when at the bottom of the lfo, it sometimes sets the center to where the lfo is when i open the ui. Harumph.

When you reported the same problem with omni and the bw guys told you the plugin had to fix it did they give any indication? Can you share that ticket?

baconpaul · Post by **baconpaul** » Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:35 am

Alright I know what is happening and I am not sure it is a Surge bug, but if it is I do not know how to fix it - probably easiest I just explain it to the BW team. You opened an issue there yeah? Can you link it here or DM it to me so I can add some context? I'll also update our GitHub issue.

bboxdw · Post by **bboxdw** » Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:04 am

baconpaul wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:35 am Alright I know what is happening and I am not sure it is a Surge bug, but if it is I do not know how to fix it - probably easiest I just explain it to the BW team. You opened an issue there yeah? Can you link it here or DM it to me so I can add some context? I'll also update our GitHub issue.

You're probably waiting to hear back from arovane re: the original report, but in case it's helpful, below is the exact text I sent BW yesterday, almost identical to what's posted above. It's ticket #96874.

"The following issue occurs with Bitwig 3.3.1and Surge 1.8.1 on Win 10. I discovered it after seeing a report of the issue on KVR, and checking to see if I could duplicate it. I don't know if it is a Bitwig or Surge issue, but I hope this info is helpful. I've also reported it to the Surge team on their KVR forum.

In the attached Bitwig project, I've set up an instance of Surge with 4 Bitwig LFOs (classic LFO quantized random, classic LFO random, classic LFO sine, and beat LFO triangle), each set up modulate one of Surge's 4 filter cutoff parameters. Each one is set up for bipolar modulation of 0.5 from the default value (corresponding to the center/0 point of the Bitwig parameter modulation knobs).

I've typed "cutoff" into the search box so you can easily see the settings before and after opening the plugin window.

What I've observed is that the proper settings are retained upon saving and reopening the project, until the plugin window is opened. At that point, all the modulators' "base" values are changed to a setting other than the default value. Each time you close/reopen the project and then open the Surge window, you'll get new base values."

Thanks again for the awesome work, and hope that helps!

Arovane · Post by **Arovane** » Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:14 am

Ticket Number 56233 from 03.04.2019

this sounds like an issue with the plugin itself, in order to check this: does it happen in earlier versions of Bitwig Studio, too, or is it a regression that came up now with the RC? We asked Spectrasonics for a testing version but have not received a reply yet.

Best regards,
Bitwig Support Team
...
... Bitwig GmbH

... www.bitwig.com
...
... Schwedter Straße 13
... 10119 Berlin
... Germany / Deutschland

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:16 am

It also happens with Bitwig 3.1.2, so it's definitely starting to smell more like a Bitwig issue, rather than a Surge issue.

baconpaul · Post by **baconpaul** » Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:51 pm

Thanks both. Can one of you either add a link to the bitwig ticket system so I can add a comment? Here's my diagnosis which you could also paste into your ticket.

"
Surge Maintainer baconpaul says the following.

The problem appears to be that the LFO is sending the VST3 message setParameterNormalized (as it should) and setting the parameter. Surge internally then sets parameter values to that so that getParamNormalized would return the value.

But when the UI is opened, Bitwig sends us a getParameterNormalized and sets the center point of the modulator to that value. It also says in the log "Applying plugin instance state" but doesn't call setState. The arturia plugins don't do this so it is definitely a surge bug of some form, just not sure what.

This means in surge if you run the LFO for a while, the getParameterNormalized call returns the *modulated* value when the editor is opened and so resets the center. This occurs in both bitwig 3.3.1 and 3.1.2.

So Paul's question was (1) when you open the UI is there some VST3 message you send me to ignore modulation I am missing and (2) why are you calling getParameterNormalized when the UI opens and how should I interpret that so it doesn't reset the center point of the LFO?

May be a surge problem indeed - that VST3 api is tricky - but he was a bit stuck as to what bigwig intended surge to do!

He's put it all in https://github.com/surge-synthesizer/surge/issues/3783
"

Vember Audio Surge is now open-source