THE baseline synthesizer would be even better if it had multiple oscillators. Obviously in the analog world the designers have more cost and space limitations.xhunaudio wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:03 pmAaargh, blasphemy !
"THE" bassline synthesizer is single-oscillator only (and strictly monophonic too). But...
Due to a "clever mod / circuit bending", on the synth used for "Out of the Box" you can achive the "equivalent" of four (4) oscillators per voice/instance (but using just a single-oscillator like the original).
Xhun Audio ZeroBox : Analogue Bassline (ver 1.2)
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- KVRAF
- 1637 posts since 28 Jul, 2006
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1229 posts since 17 Feb, 2010
@Super Piano Hater 64 :
Exactly, it is 90% due to that, but there's also more...
In addition to the "cost limitation" you correctly mentioned, back in the days of analogue gears (and the same is valid for an accurate analogue modeling) for "bass lines" in general a *single oscillator* design was widely recommended because of the difficoulty of keeping 2 or more analogue oscillators phase "in tune" with each other. This could be a problem, specially at low frequencies.
A single oscillator design was recommended because you have no detuned phases to deal with and this translates into a stronger and more stable transients too.
Instead, by using a single-oscillator design + specific "mods" you can get a much bolder sound (typical of a multi-oscillator system) while keeping the same "solidity" of a single-oscillator system.
Exactly, it is 90% due to that, but there's also more...
Well, not exactly.briefcasemanx wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:53 pmTHE baseline synthesizer would be even better if it had multiple oscillators. Obviously in the analog world the designers have more cost and space limitations.xhunaudio wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:03 pmAaargh, blasphemy !
"THE" bassline synthesizer is single-oscillator only (and strictly monophonic too). But...
Due to a "clever mod / circuit bending", on the synth used for "Out of the Box" you can achive the "equivalent" of four (4) oscillators per voice/instance (but using just a single-oscillator like the original).
In addition to the "cost limitation" you correctly mentioned, back in the days of analogue gears (and the same is valid for an accurate analogue modeling) for "bass lines" in general a *single oscillator* design was widely recommended because of the difficoulty of keeping 2 or more analogue oscillators phase "in tune" with each other. This could be a problem, specially at low frequencies.
A single oscillator design was recommended because you have no detuned phases to deal with and this translates into a stronger and more stable transients too.
Instead, by using a single-oscillator design + specific "mods" you can get a much bolder sound (typical of a multi-oscillator system) while keeping the same "solidity" of a single-oscillator system.
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- KVRAF
- 4310 posts since 20 Feb, 2004
You could always have a phase offset + phase retrigger for the oscs... Just sayin', that would probably allow you to retain the solidity (if desired) while offering multiple oscillators.
Anyhoo, it's your baby, I won't try to tell you what to do. Just offering my perspective on what excites me in a synth nowadays, having the option to go beyond the hardware original (besides stellar sound quality, which you already appear to have achieved!).
Anyhoo, it's your baby, I won't try to tell you what to do. Just offering my perspective on what excites me in a synth nowadays, having the option to go beyond the hardware original (besides stellar sound quality, which you already appear to have achieved!).
A well-behaved signature.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1229 posts since 17 Feb, 2010
Happy New Year to everyone !
Simply adding a 2nd independent oscillator (or a 3rd, 4th, ... one) would be too much invasive and (from a design point of view) it would *deeply* alter the nature of the original bassline. I never heard of such kind of "multi-osc mods" for the original hardware because it was difficoult to replicate the original oscillator (for a DIY enthusiast) and because it was difficoult to include it into the original PCB and case. In addition, it would transform the original design in something too much different.
So, insteads of trivially adding one or more oscillators, I asked myself : once I have an accurate replica of the analogue components used, which kind of *realistic* "hardware mod" would I have introduced in the original hardware - for example, back in the 90s (using a real welding machine) ?
Then I made several designs and added them preserving their original (hardware) topology, but in the "virtual realm". And one of this "original designs" will let you achieve the same "bold and detuned" sound of having multiple oscillators, without having multiple oscillators, in line with "the 80s' device" and "the 90s' DIY mods" *minimalistic* spirit / approach.
The few (!) words above just to try to explain my approach. I'll be happy to illustrate in detail every aspect of this synth / setup in the next days / weeks (with images + walkthrough, etc.).
Sure, Jeremiah ! In analogue electronics (as well as analogue modeling) it is possible to include a phase locking circuit. For example in LittleOne when you set the "Analogue Components" as "STABLE", you activate such (virtual) circuit.JerGoertz wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:29 am You could always have a phase offset + phase retrigger for the oscs... Just sayin', that would probably allow you to retain the solidity (if desired) while offering multiple oscillators.
The point / approach here is to preserve all the analogue components physical properties, physical interactions, the signal paths and the original general design - while at the same time expanding the device's possibilities with *realistic* circuit bents (from existing 90s projects or also original ones) and coherent mods "in the spirit of that time".JerGoertz wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:29 am Anyhoo, it's your baby, I won't try to tell you what to do. Just offering my perspective on what excites me in a synth nowadays, having the option to go beyond the hardware original (besides stellar sound quality, which you already appear to have achieved!).
Simply adding a 2nd independent oscillator (or a 3rd, 4th, ... one) would be too much invasive and (from a design point of view) it would *deeply* alter the nature of the original bassline. I never heard of such kind of "multi-osc mods" for the original hardware because it was difficoult to replicate the original oscillator (for a DIY enthusiast) and because it was difficoult to include it into the original PCB and case. In addition, it would transform the original design in something too much different.
So, insteads of trivially adding one or more oscillators, I asked myself : once I have an accurate replica of the analogue components used, which kind of *realistic* "hardware mod" would I have introduced in the original hardware - for example, back in the 90s (using a real welding machine) ?
Then I made several designs and added them preserving their original (hardware) topology, but in the "virtual realm". And one of this "original designs" will let you achieve the same "bold and detuned" sound of having multiple oscillators, without having multiple oscillators, in line with "the 80s' device" and "the 90s' DIY mods" *minimalistic* spirit / approach.
The few (!) words above just to try to explain my approach. I'll be happy to illustrate in detail every aspect of this synth / setup in the next days / weeks (with images + walkthrough, etc.).
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- KVRian
- 1236 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Karlshamn, Sweden
Very interested in this. Looking forward to see more details! (especially about those "specific mods")
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- KVRAF
- 3361 posts since 31 Dec, 2004 from People's Republic of Minnesota
Interesting. Sounds great. Going to keep an eye on this.
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- KVRAF
- 2990 posts since 13 Apr, 2008 from Charleston, SC
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1229 posts since 17 Feb, 2010
In a few days/weeks I'll be able to publish a product walkthrough here.
In addition to the "analogue side", there's also the "sequencer side" and many of its operative modes/functions have to be carefully explained in order to be used *at their best*...
In addition to the "analogue side", there's also the "sequencer side" and many of its operative modes/functions have to be carefully explained in order to be used *at their best*...
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1229 posts since 17 Feb, 2010
Here's - in advance - a drawing of the whole setup :
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gentleclockdivider gentleclockdivider https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=203660 - Banned
- 6787 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent
I was guessing it was going to be a supercharged 303 but for some reason the examples (while sounding great on their own ) didn't really convince me .
Would love to hear some demo's of the filter + reso , accent behaviour while not being washed in distortion and delay
It's going have to sound pretty convincing to steer me away fro abl3 , still pretty interested to see-hear the final result and no doubt it will sound great nonetheless
Would love to hear some demo's of the filter + reso , accent behaviour while not being washed in distortion and delay
It's going have to sound pretty convincing to steer me away fro abl3 , still pretty interested to see-hear the final result and no doubt it will sound great nonetheless
Last edited by gentleclockdivider on Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eyeball exchanging
Soul calibrating ..frequencies
Soul calibrating ..frequencies
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gentleclockdivider gentleclockdivider https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=203660
- Banned
- 6787 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent
Double post
Eyeball exchanging
Soul calibrating ..frequencies
Soul calibrating ..frequencies
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Super Piano Hater 64 Super Piano Hater 64 https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=491312 - KVRist
- 499 posts since 24 Jan, 2021
UI layout is looking good.
The thing that concerns me the most is the name. Are you really going with "Out of the Box?" That will cause endless confusion from both hardware and software users.
The thing that concerns me the most is the name. Are you really going with "Out of the Box?" That will cause endless confusion from both hardware and software users.
I hate signatures too.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1229 posts since 17 Feb, 2010
The audio demo is meant to show the global versatility of the whole system. In addition of the "clone" unit itself, the software includes several other "things" (extended range for knobs, bents, mods and FX units) and they all were used in that presets showcase.gentleclockdivider wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:49 pm It's going have to sound pretty convincing to steer me away fro abl3 , still pretty interested to see-hear the final result and no doubt it will sound great nonetheless
If you want a more "naive 303" sound, you can just disable the included "addon features" - on this purpose I strongly recommend to read the manual and/or the walkthrough I'll publish here soon.
This new clone/synth could be seen as an addendum, not strictly as a replacement for this or that existing basslines. There are many accurate and wonderful sounding basslines developed by other companies in the pro audio scene. This is a new companion, expanding the offer with some unseen, cool features
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1229 posts since 17 Feb, 2010
The full name of the product will be "Out-Of-The-Box-So-You-And-Your-Friends-Can-Make-Cool-Basslines-Like-And-Beyond-Three-Ow-Three".Super Piano Hater 64 wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:38 pm UI layout is looking good.
The thing that concerns me the most is the name. Are you really going with "Out of the Box?" That will cause endless confusion from both hardware and software users.
Eheh, seriously, "Out of the Box" is just the name of the audio demo.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1229 posts since 17 Feb, 2010
- The Product Walkthrough -
Ok, so to recap, this setup is made of 3 main sections : the analogue synthesizer, the embedded "computer controlled" sequencer and the separate FX units.
The Analogue Synthesizer
On the analogue synthesizer side, the approach is the following :
1- the analogue electronics components and the way they interact between each other is carefully preserved (oscillator, filter, gimmick circuit, accent function, etc.)
2- the operative range for the knobs has been extended (as found for example on the so called hardware "clones")
3- while the original signal path is preserved, a number of mods and circuit-bents have been added - you can take advantage of them or disable everything and go with the original bassline "limitations".
(Full description of all Parameters will follow below)
Ok, so to recap, this setup is made of 3 main sections : the analogue synthesizer, the embedded "computer controlled" sequencer and the separate FX units.
The Analogue Synthesizer
On the analogue synthesizer side, the approach is the following :
1- the analogue electronics components and the way they interact between each other is carefully preserved (oscillator, filter, gimmick circuit, accent function, etc.)
2- the operative range for the knobs has been extended (as found for example on the so called hardware "clones")
3- while the original signal path is preserved, a number of mods and circuit-bents have been added - you can take advantage of them or disable everything and go with the original bassline "limitations".
(Full description of all Parameters will follow below)