If you had to stick to one DAW - and ONLY its native 1st party devices + sounds - which one would it be?

[machinesworking]

They bought Logic, Redmatica, and Camel Audio to drive sales of Macs.

Well, that's obvious but that's not what you wrote. Either way your inherent bias or not Apple did not steal Camel Audio. The Camel Audio guys sold themselves to Apple. Why not put the blame on them?

I think if I was a thousand-air and Apple offered to make me a millionaire if I walled off my product from some users, I would bite as well. You're going after the little guy there.

Mostly this is a case of razzing and sarcasm not working on the internet. I'm only slightly annoyed by it all, and it's fun to act like Apple are the enemy™, I've never used PCs for music, so I've put with years of online PC users acting butthurt about Apple, even without owning Logic, Camel products etc.

In the bigger picture it's great that a company with obvious longevity in the game is invested in great products like Logic, Camel, Redmatica etc. but seriously, it's a little heartless to defend a 2 trillion dollar company that made someone's life a bit more complicated, let people have a poke at Apple without needing to defend them. it's just kinda cruel.

[apoclypse]

They bought Logic, Redmatica, and Camel Audio to drive sales of Macs.

Well, that's obvious but that's not what you wrote. Either way your inherent bias or not Apple did not steal Camel Audio. The Camel Audio guys sold themselves to Apple. Why not put the blame on them?

I think if I was a thousand-air and Apple offered to make me a millionaire if I walled off my product from some users, I would bite as well. You're going after the little guy there.

Mostly this is a case of razzing and sarcasm not working on the internet. I'm only slightly annoyed by it all, and it's fun to act like Apple are the enemy™, I've never used PCs for music, so I've put with years of online PC users acting butthurt about Apple, even without owning Logic, Camel products etc.

In the bigger picture it's great that a company with obvious longevity in the game is invested in great products like Logic, Camel, Redmatica etc. but seriously, it's a little heartless to defend a 2 trillion dollar company that made someone's life a bit more complicated, let people have a poke at Apple without needing to defend them. it's just kinda cruel.

Nobody is defending anybody I'm just stating facts. At least if you are going to razz someone get your facts straight.

[machinesworking]

Nobody is defending anybody I'm just stating facts. At least if you are going to razz someone get your facts straight.

Meh, you're obviously a bit butthurt about this. Apple is a 2 trillion dollar company, anybody with a business can be bought by a company of that magnitude. You want to "blame" Camel, and honestly it's just silly to blame them. You're wrong about that, period. We don't live in a Disney movie where people turn the other cheek for the "love of their job" etc.

If anyone is to blame it's Apple, when you can pay for anything and force a move towards Logic on people, then the blame simply sits with the party with all the money, period. When you blame a single person who has nothing like the safety net that Apple has, it's just wrong. When you do this to end users that lost a plug in because they don't use Logic or a Mac, you're just being rude.

I like and use Apple products, I'm not fond of their walled garden approach, it's entirely possible to be synpathetic towards the end user who lost something without blaming the little people because somehow that makes you feel bad about using Apple? I really don't get it.

[SamDi]

I'm not a Max/MSP power user as you, but I am pretty shure, that PD relates to Max/DSP, as GIMP to Photoshop, Blender to 3ds Max, LibreOffice to MS Office, etc. etc.

(1) It was MAX/MSP. Now its just called MAX, but MSP was originally an add-on/extension which did audio ; it stands for MAX Signal Processing. Or perhaps, it also stands for Miller Smith Puckette, after the guy who actually developed MAX.

Yes, my fault.

(2) Miller Smith Puckette also developed Pure Data (PD). And MSP was subsequently derived from his work on PD.

This I know. But that doesn't change, that MAX is a well maintained, documented and good-looking product with an layer on top of stock modules and PD is just naked plain open source with an Atari ST GUI charm. It's just the core which is the same.

edit : and if the 'Blender to 3DS Max' were true, Ableton/C74 should be =very= worried, given the rate at which I currently hear professional animators and modellers talk about switching to Blender. Meanwhile I literally havent heard anyone talk about switching to 3DSMax in 15 years.

Of course not. The same as you never heard a photographer switching TO photoshop, a professional studio engineer switchong TO Pro Tools or a professional developer switching TO Visual Studio.

[SamDi]

But obviously it's not applicable to every type of music and not to everyone's process.

Yes I guess you are right. I fear that all the Bitwig lovers are more on the experimental side. I would be interested what is the outcome of this guys. Do they release regularly songs? Or are they distracted by noodling around and playing with all these nice tools (as you and me are either )? Ist their output even, what I would call music at all? Dont know.

You must not do much sound design.

You mean like making R2D2 or alien sounds for movies? No I rather want to make music

Say I want to try some strange idea like play a note that has 3 stacked voices of the same pitch and then when I press down on the aftertouch, the 3 notes spread into a chord.
..
Or I want to use the y axis on my Linnstrument so that each note has a few different arpeggiated patterns depending where on the Y axis I hold the note

How would you exactly do these 2 examples in BW? I am curious, because ATM I have no idea how to get this there, since I'm not deep enough. Hope that's not too OT.

You can even modulate parameters which are not modulatable within the plugin... You really stop using internal modulation as its so much easier to do it directly...

This is indeed a small game changer. I can without thinking find 2-3 examples, where I want modulate parameters which is not possible ITB.

That said Andy (The Developer at Cytomic) has said before that the stuff he did for Ableton was heavily optimized and not 100% the same as what he sells from his website.

Wasn't it said, that at least for The Glue and Autofilter the algorithms are exactly the same? For the synth filters OK, since they need to be polyphonic.

I do miss EQ8 though, it did sound quite nice. Pro-Q3 has a overall better workflow, so I don't know if i would choose EQ8 over Pro-Q3. Fabfilter have made a very nice EQ system that is hard to beat.

Really? I mean, what can be easier to just turn the knobs on the main screen, instead of having to open a VST pluging screen. When I go on Ableton to Pro-Q and click it to open it, I have in the meanwhile done the change already done on the stock EQ. Nevertheless for extended tasks Pro-Q is cool (what didn't avoid me to induldge my GAS and getting finally Equilibrium)

The glue is a great compressor, but it still has a much different sound than other classic designs so I always think it's good to have another type like DMGAudios Trackcomp2.

Since the question was for stock plugins, you are out of scope

The DSP in FL Studio is good, but I wouldn't say it's any better than what Bitwig offers. I think FL Studio definitely has a lot more presets aimed at Dance producers than Bitwig does.

There we are not on the same page. The Bitwig modules sound quality is far from, what Sytrus or Harmor offer. Also the the Fx quality is 2 classes difference IMO.

Well one thing about having your DAW do the modulation is that when you run out of modulation sources on your synth plugin, you now have more.

This is clearly a DAW you have not used enough to criticize.

It's not, that I criticize it. It's a cool concept and I see how much love the developers put into some details. It's just that ATM for me what Bitwig offers is not enough to work with it more often than with Ableton or FL Studio. This modulatin stuff is nice but until now for the synths I use I never did run out of modulation slots . Maybe we have different approachs here

[antic604]

But obviously it's not applicable to every type of music and not to everyone's process.

Yes I guess you are right. I fear that all the Bitwig lovers are more on the experimental side. I would be interested what is the outcome of this guys. Do they release regularly songs? Or are they distracted by noodling around and playing with all these nice tools (as you and me are either )? Ist their output even, what I would call music at all? Dont know.

I suspect for most people it might even help them make & finish music faster, because they don't have to randomize stuff "by hand" anymore.

For those who are indecisive / perfectionists / OCD - it's hell on Earth

[whyterabbyt]

This I know. But that doesn't change, that MAX is a well maintained, documented and good-looking product with an layer on top of stock modules and PD is just naked plain open source with an Atari ST GUI charm. It's just the core which is the same.

PD is a well maintained, documented product with a separation between the UI and the engine meaning it can be embedded with any UI. Swings and roundabouts.

Of course not. The same as you never heard a photographer switching TO photoshop, a professional studio engineer switchong TO Pro Tools or a professional developer switching TO Visual Studio.

Actually I have heard people talk about switching to Photoshop, from just using Lightroom or Photoshop Elements, or even Affinity, though that one seems to go the other way much more these days because Adobe. Known several people switched to PT when they started working more on film-based projects. Also heard people talk about switching to Visual Studio, from both VSCode and Jetbrains, same way as they used to from Borland. Ive switched to Visual Studio, then away again, then back. 3DSMax users talking about switching to Maya isnt uncommon, but as I say, no longer the other way though.
So, the opposite of 'never' really.

[chk071]

Actually I have heard people talk about switching to Photoshop, from just using Lightroom or Photoshop Elements, or even Affinity, though that one seems to go the other way much more these days because Adobe.

I can totally relate to that. Not just "because Adobe". Let's just say that I get why professionals pay what they have to pay with Adobe.

I only do rudimentary stuff, but, even for that, something like PS Elements is simply easier, and better than APhoto. I really tried to like and get into the Affinity apps, but, there's always the point where I either don't find stuff, because it's either well hidden, or not present at all, and the point where I simply realize that I get a better end result using PS Elements.

I guess you have to make that experience to realize why one is sold for 28 € in a sale, and one is sold for the same per month. Yes, cost is not always a measure, but, frankly, the difference just shouts in my face every time I use either program.

[Dionysos]

Yes I guess you are right. I fear that all the Bitwig lovers are more on the experimental side. I would be interested what is the outcome of this guys. Do they release regularly songs? Or are they distracted by noodling around and playing with all these nice tools (as you and me are either )? Ist their output even, what I would call music at all? Dont know.

Pretty tired sentiment. I use Bitwig without making heavy use of its modulation system, the grid, or detailed sound design in general. There's plenty of other stuff to love about it.

[Guenon]

Of course not. The same as you never heard a photographer switching TO photoshop, a professional studio engineer switchong TO Pro Tools or a professional developer switching TO Visual Studio.

I have literally heard all those things, and the last one (switching TO Visual Studio) is especially poignant as I have said that myself because of a certain family of projects. Then, the past year, I was back in Rider again, as I was back to coding audio system stuff as a part of implementing my (main) work in game engines, and I prefer that. But all this talk about the quality of PD, Blender, etc, even the Affinity stuff... it misses the mark of how things are actually used in the field these days, and how great they all can be.

In other words, a lot of the discussion on software above doesn't take into account how case by case these things really are, also including personal preference and so forth, and how good a fit some of the mentioned software really can be in a given project.

[whyterabbyt]

In other words, a lot of the discussion on software above doesn't take into account how case by case these things really are, also including personal preference and so forth, and how good a fit some of the mentioned software really can be in a given project.

As always, Guenon hits the nail on the head.

[pdxindy]

You must not do much sound design.

You mean like making R2D2 or alien sounds for movies? No I rather want to make music

That is just some stereotype... you can use the tools to make any sounds you want.ss

Like I also mentioned in the same post, I often use the Bitwig modulation to add a variety of subtle modulations for velocity/timbre/pressure to give a lead sound some of the nuance and expressivity that acoustic instruments have. Doesn't get more 'musical' than that. And listeners will not even notice that modulation, other than it sounds beautiful and emotional like a real instrument. Then of course it requires some playing skill

The tools don't define what you do.

[Synthack]

......

[vurt]

Ist their output even, what I would call music at all? Dont know.

not if you have no understanding of what music is beyond what you are fed by the radio teeheeheefuckinghee.

[apoclypse]

Nobody is defending anybody I'm just stating facts. At least if you are going to razz someone get your facts straight.

Meh, you're obviously a bit butthurt about this. Apple is a 2 trillion dollar company, anybody with a business can be bought by a company of that magnitude. You want to "blame" Camel, and honestly it's just silly to blame them. You're wrong about that, period. We don't live in a Disney movie where people turn the other cheek for the "love of their job" etc.

If anyone is to blame it's Apple, when you can pay for anything and force a move towards Logic on people, then the blame simply sits with the party with all the money, period. When you blame a single person who has nothing like the safety net that Apple has, it's just wrong. When you do this to end users that lost a plug in because they don't use Logic or a Mac, you're just being rude.

I like and use Apple products, I'm not fond of their walled garden approach, it's entirely possible to be synpathetic towards the end user who lost something without blaming the little people because somehow that makes you feel bad about using Apple? I really don't get it.

LOL. Says the person butthurt because Apple took away one of their toys.