One Synth Challenge #165: BBC Symphony Orchestra Discover by Spitfire Audio (Schiing Wins!)

[MilksterX]

Just don't justifiy yourself. You don't have to.
It's their problem not yours. If they expect you to use a piece of technology how they think a piece of technology is properly used and then kind of being disappointed that you don't meet their expectations ... bet whose problem that is.
This is like Mr. Commodore C64 still commenting every demo scene entry these days with "This is illegal use of Commodore C64. We never intended it to be used like that. Please use Basic Interpreter".
That said - congrats and well done to try to do out of the box thinking, push things to the bondary and avoiding to do what others expect you to do. And P6 proves you right.

This has made my day Peter, Thankyou

[Taron]

Haha Taron I wasn't saying you were against me as such just that it was pointed out and rightly so! There's only so far you can get with orchestral samples before you have to start using mixing techniques to get you to where you want to go sonically. No offence meant to anyone just trying to show that things are not always as extreme as they sometimes may seem. Yes I went to the limits of what is allowed but I think any other genre maybe wouldn't have warranted the need to do so

So now that I've had my good-morning-set, life's looking brighter again.
Yeah, nah, you've stayed in your lane with something like Discover, which really made it a proper challenge. I was smiling and was impressed the whole way through. You've shown daring and inventiveness and there was nothing wrong with it in my books. I believe it was you and Frogs in Pants, who really gave me such a blast to listen to. I mean, proper fun overall!
You're a true and passionate music maker with proper skills and obviously proper joy in it. To me these are inspiring traits and of highest value. In our gang this goes for many of us and shows in such different ways. That's the beauty of it all.

[zarf]

Congrats top 5, fantastic work

I'm surprised Taron didn't take it as it was in a league of it's own to my ears (as I believe Schiing said as well), so it was the only 5 I gave out which is something I've never been able to do before. (It blows my mind how anyone could score Taron's track less than a 4 and in my dream world I would love to understand what criteria they were using!)

//related aside
Now it has bitten me in the ass I have direct emotional understanding of part of what I think Elex was trying to say to Schiing. General comments are all very well - but I looked at schiing's list and thought - 'well that doesn't apply to me: I used dynamics (micro and macro), tempo change (automated everywhere throughout carefully by ear and hand), careful 'not played on keyboard' programming, evolving themes, textures, not too long etc' - and lo, schiing gave me a 2.
So now I'm left more confused than I would have been without the advice, and a single comment on my own track that gave me a clue why it was being so lowly scored would be far more helpful for my development.

This is not a complaint, it is an experience, an insight and just joining the discussion.

So - what is the learning for me here? It has reminded me just how unhelpful it can feel to get a low score with no idea why. I'm going to try to re-up my game around giving people feedback when I'm giving out low scores in future... at least, that's my intent.
//end aside

[Taron]

Congrats top 5, fantastic work

I'm surprised Taron didn't take it as it was in a league of it's own to my ears (as I believe Schiing said as well), so it was the only 5 I gave out which is something I've never been able to do before. (It blows my mind how anyone could score Taron's track less than a 4 and in my dream world I would love to understand what criteria they were using!)

//related aside
Now it has bitten me in the ass I have direct emotional understanding of part of what I think Elex was trying to say to Schiing. General comments are all very well - but I looked at schiing's list and thought - 'well that doesn't apply to me: I used dynamics (micro and macro), tempo change (automated everywhere throughout carefully by ear and hand), careful 'not played on keyboard' programming, evolving themes, textures, not too long etc' - and lo, schiing gave me a 2.
So now I'm left more confused than I would have been without the advice, and a single comment on my own track that gave me a clue why it was being so lowly scored would be far more helpful for my development.

This is not a complaint, it is an experience, an insight and just joining the discussion.

So - what is the learning for me here? It has reminded me just how unhelpful it can feel to get a low score with no idea why. I'm going to try to re-up my game around giving people feedback when I'm giving out low scores in future... at least, that's my intent.
//end aside

Thanks, Zarf! ...it's a weird world sometimes. I virtually always enjoy your genuine artistry with music. You have a profound musicality and relentless depth in your musical spirit that somehow always gets to me. Like I'm with you when I hear your work and I want to be, too.
It's always beyond traditional composition and it's absolutely always completely original in pretty much every way. You offer disclosure and conversation and never seem to hold back whatever you channel with your process.
But you do speak in your language, which is truly your own and some just don't know what you're saying?!
My only bias to your pieces is that I just deeply enjoy them. If people would allow themselves to accept the inspiration you are offering, they'd enrich their scope properly as you've done to mine and always do!

[zarf]

Thanks, Zarf! ...it's a weird world sometimes. I virtually always enjoy your genuine artistry with music. You have a profound musicality and relentless depth in your musical spirit that somehow always gets to me. Like I'm with you when I hear your work and I want to be, too.
It's always beyond traditional composition and it's absolutely always completely original in pretty much every way. You offer disclosure and conversation and never seem to hold back whatever you channel with your process.
But you do speak in your language, which is truly your own and some just don't know what you're saying?!
My only bias to your pieces is that I just deeply enjoy them. If people would allow themselves to accept the inspiration you are offering, they'd enrich their scope properly as you've done to mine and always do!

Thanks Taron for those incredibly generous words. Ha ha now I feel suddenly in the spotlight! Deeply appreciate this, thank you.

[liqih]

I apologize in advance for this very subjective reflection, anyway I need to write it. Honestly I feel bummed by this "technicality" frenzy I read in the last pages, I always believed that freedom in music and art in general was good thing. But looks like almost everybody here want to astonish the listener and be admired, or on the other hand likes to admire the virtuosic skills behind the tracks. But yes, "One Synth Challenge" implies to show off tech skills in a limited setup, only if that's the only focus the whole context looks to me like a good place to learn something if you're a beginner, where the experts tell their own rules, but where the "soul" of music is a secondary aspect.
So I have to admit to myself I took the wrong way in, in this case, and I have to find another scene.
Always with respect I greet you all. Bye.

[Taron]

The #1 thing that matters above all else is that you enjoy what you're doing, that you find a reason to create and get to do so from the bottom of your heart. I know, it's painful when some people don't seem to appreciate all the results of your work, but you would live in a kind of hell, if your motive was to be admired or any other secondary effect. It would keep you from applying your heart, your ideals and then it would be more than just a waste of time.
I absolutely love when people show me their appreciation, particularly when it's musicians and I absolutely love to create something impressive, when I can/if I can. But I wouldn't do any of it, if I wouldn't first love to simply do it above all else.
Just recently I had to admit that music is in the very essence of my core, like there's hardly a moment in my life when I don't hear some music forming within me. It's weird because I didn't make music my profession, while I chose another part of my core being for that purpose and that's art, be that in what I visualize or the tools I develop. But music is always with me and I'm full of true love when I get to surrender into making music.
The OSC has always been and still is the most wonderful outlet to share, because even when tastes clash and opinions collide, we do drive on the same road towards the same general direction on the horizon.
You are one of the most unique composers among us, always seemingly driven with a unique agenda that leads you to provide a highly particular style of music that really is your own. There's very often a kind of substance in your work that makes it come to life and has immense character. Your music is like a friend you want to have with you, even if he can get a bit strange and puzzling at times, but he provides certainly excitement.
My advice remains the same as it is so often: Never let secondary effects keep you from letting your primary joy lead you!

[Mr Arkadin]

I guess I was the lowest scorer, but hey no-one liked my track anyway I'm still going ahead and creating a Pro version for comparison, plus it's already down to 4:45 duration, so I've learned something.

There were a few factors in my scoring. I've never been a fan of 'participation' trophies. I think zero is not needed, in this case everyone that tries deserves at least one point as there is rarely music so terrible that it deserves nothing, even I'm not that mean.

Also I wasn't a fan of overprocessed stuff, especially third party and extreme. I sort of thought the idea was that the competition was a leveller for those without loads of third party effects. Hence I used only the reverb, EQ and limiter built into Studio One. I sort of felt if you turned a flute into a massive drone synth then what was the point?

Related to the above, any tracks that tried to effect their way into the dance arena just didn't work for me. Nothing against dance tracks, just not with Discover.

So my breakdown was something like:
5 - exceptional
4 - really good
3 - good - some more of these might have made it to 4 with more time to listen
2 - usually tracks that stuck to the generally orchestral criteria I was favouring for this OSC, but maybe lacked direction, dynamics etc.
1 - heavily effected and/or dance tracks - these were not necessarily bad musically, just maybe fell outside what I thought was the spirit of the challenge. I've never participated before so maybe I didn't understand how far you're allowed to go.

[silverpants]

I apologize in advance for this very subjective reflection, anyway I need to write it. Honestly I feel bummed by this "technicality" frenzy I read in the last pages, I always believed that freedom in music and art in general was good thing. But looks like almost everybody here want to astonish the listener and be admired, or on the other hand likes to admire the virtuosic skills behind the tracks. But yes, "One Synth Challenge" implies to show off tech skills in a limited setup, only if that's the only focus the whole context looks to me like a good place to learn something if you're a beginner, where the experts tell their own rules, but where the "soul" of music is a secondary aspect.
So I have to admit to myself I took the wrong way in, in this case, and I have to find another scene.
Always with respect I greet you all. Bye.

Don't go Liqih! You are one of the highlights of OSC because you always delight and surprise me with a new way of approaching the challenge - and I'm sure lots of other agree. Certainly don't base any decisions on this round - which was much more rigid and I think experimentation was often shunned. I didn't enjoy this round as much as normal - because I hate conforming to man-made-rules. I found trying to make my song sound like a proper orchestra a bore. Anyway - I hope you don't actually leave - it would be a great loss to OSC.

[envlpx]

I think those were the two main processed sounds questioned The rest was just LFOs & "mid 90s style block chords" with "no concern for orchestral dynamics"

Thanks for posting your process, I was blown away by your track and the sounds you achieved. The tracks scored 4, 5 and 6 are very close (204-201 points), so the final result could have gone either way.

Coincidently, Christian Henson (Spitfire's founder) posted a video a few days ago about this kind of processing for orchestral sounds:

[schiing]

Writing itch alert.

MilksterX: I'm sorry, I should have left out my comment about processing. I have no way of knowing exactly what's external processing and what's clever lfo trickery in yours or any other track – and it wasn't my intention to throw unjustified suspicion on anyone. And I didn't base my vote on it.

To shed some light on my liquidation of your track – because it was the most extreme consequence of my voting strategy: My assertion is that you're an amazing artist, and you can create tracks like these from a sine wave if you want to. And it's a good track, but I didn't think you took advantage of the sounds that lay before you – you forced them into your concept.

Which is fun, but I punished you for it, because I know you're a very capable producer – and I think less technically gifted contestants understood something that you didn't. Well, to be fair I think you understood perfectly well – you simply wanted to put it to the test. Which is totally fine! But I wanted to reward those who went the other way. A 100% subjective call, of course.

It's the same reason I've given jasinski a 3 a few times, only with more extreme voting results: I set the bar higher for you.

If you had free rein with effects, pulling stunts like Henson in the video above, you would have wiped the floor with the rest of us.

Either way, your talent is undisputed – and I always love listening to your stuff.

Zarf: Your track is an example of another of my earlier points: I like large parts of your composition. I like the quiet, sparse parts, and I actually think it would sound great and on point with live musicians. But – and I'm not actually sure if this is your fault or BBCSO's – it sounds disjointed, and it's hard to get the overall picture. But I think I can discern an overarching plan, and I really like what I imagine it to be.

The loudest parts are a bit of a mess – lines are overlapping, harmonically, and they compete with each other in volume level, and it's hard as a listener to understand what the intent is.

In sum, it plays out like a promising, but early, demo – and I felt there were other pieces in the competition that sounded more complete and through-produced – and I scored you lower than them.

liqih: To the degree that you're referring to me:
1. Be free. Always.
2. I'm not an expert.
3. I don't make rules. I don't want to make rules. I don't want to make or influence any rules, anywhere, ever. I just want to enjoy life. And music.
4. I think the "technicality" aspect is always interesting – be it in regards to composition, arrangement, programming skills or production – and I think that it would be as bad an idea to ignore it as it would be to make the competition all about it.
5. "Soul" is what makes you come back to the music, and "technicality" is meaningless and unattractive without it.
6. Your contributions to OSC are unique, and I hope you will stay with us for as long as this thing goes on.

[zarf]

Well for my part, thanks Schiing for that extra feedback, it's really helpful to get that insight into your perception and thinking... makes sense! Cheers for taking the time to do that.

[zarf]

and p.s. Liqih I would like to echo the other's who are asking you to stay - I really value your inputs and your music and perspective, you would be missed here! But of course follow your heart and very best wishes wherever that leads you.

[schiing]

No problem, zarf! It's a pity, really. Everyone deserves at least this amount of attention, but it's often hard to make time for it in these big rounds.

[Double Tap]

I apologize in advance for this very subjective reflection, anyway I need to write it. Honestly I feel bummed by this "technicality" frenzy I read in the last pages, I always believed that freedom in music and art in general was good thing. But looks like almost everybody here want to astonish the listener and be admired, or on the other hand likes to admire the virtuosic skills behind the tracks. But yes, "One Synth Challenge" implies to show off tech skills in a limited setup, only if that's the only focus the whole context looks to me like a good place to learn something if you're a beginner, where the experts tell their own rules, but where the "soul" of music is a secondary aspect.
So I have to admit to myself I took the wrong way in, in this case, and I have to find another scene.
Always with respect I greet you all. Bye.

I do hope the 'bye' was a turn of phrase rather than an exit. That would be a huge shame. Since I've been taking part in OSC, it's been a really positive community that keeps changing and renewing which makes it interesting. But it also needs stalwarts like you and Doc Bob and everyone else to keep the vibe going.