why are most soft synths and effects so expensive?

[nuisance sonore]

Software developping and selling is a business like any other. It is not only expected to turn a profit but it is mandatory or it will die.

The price of goods is market driven and there's a relationship between the price of a product and the number of units moved, like in the cheaper it is, in theory the number of units sold should should be greater until you hit market saturation. The biggest decision a business can make is finding the right price/unit sold ratio, the one that will give you the most return for the investement you made either in time or money or both. It is a balancing act and to make such a decision a lot of guesswork is involved, but also experience and the knowledge of the market involved plays a big role in this. I trust software dev on this board to know their market, so therefore the guess they make as to the unit price of their product to be a very well educated one.

The cost of developement and of getting your product to market will affect the bottom line, the profit if you will, but plays a very small role in determining the price of a product, even though it will affect the long term viability of the company. It is rather pointless to discuss the cost of developement of software as a starting point for the market price I feel, as it is kind of going backward about it and contrary to good business practice.

My 2¢ worth.

[Torben]

edit

[Hunter]

Spectra took about 1000 hours to develop and code for the windows version only. And some of the algorithms to the effect section were more or less developed by us before. On top of this comes expenses to the GUI designer and sound designers. Then there are expenses to ads and advertising, exhibitions etc. and finally additional time for updating etc. How many plugins are sold? Let me say it this way that the big companies consider a product a success if it sells about 2000-3000 pcs on all platforms and they naturally got a greater sale (and uses more money for marketing etc) than a little company, and what if it is not a success; then the product is likely to be a losing business.

Torben

Yes, I was going to say, the poster earlier who suggested 5000 units sold is a bit optomistic, as was the one who gave a figure of a few hundred hours to develope a product. Even updating an existing product can require hundreds of hours of work.

All you have to do is go to Musikmesse and look at the state of all the devs to realise how hard a job it is

[Amberience]

If Jorgen Aase can do it and keep the price at $49 and still earn a living making the program, I don't see why other developers can't.

Note: Jorgen has said before that EnergyXT is his living.

If you're a developer that wants to drive big plush cars and buy all the synths you'll ever need, then I guess large prices are required.

[Urs]

If they sell 5000 units

I think there are indeed five or six software instruments that made more than 5000 units. One of them is an organ emulation, another one plays back a fixed set of samples. The others needed a vast amount of marketing and advertisement to get there.

However, here's my view on the topic:

There are several factors that determine the price. First I look at the competing products and what they cost/offer. If I have the impression that they do well at a certain price point, I get an idea of the *max* price tag I could ask. I'll typically make it a little cheaper. It is about taking the potential user's perspective. At what price would I buy it?

Next we have to put up a new myth: While it may be true that a cheaper price might lead to way more customers and higher revenues, it might *not* lead to higher profit. Vice versa, the more customers one has, the more time goes into support. I know of cases where an instrument sold amazingly well (2000+ units) but the company went into coma because the developer could just not keep up with the sheer amount of support emails. Thus he could not create new poducts and he hardly could fix all issues with the original instrument.

Latter is pretty plausible to me. I announced/previewed a new software last month, got 1700 downloads and answered emails from roughly every 10th user. Hundreds of emails don't exactly let one do much else. Thus everything takes longer than expected. I'm currently not posting anything in the forums (like new presets, new hype factors, anything) because I want to get work done rather than harvesting more revenues. Weird, huh?

My business considerations depend on what I'd call a "sanity model". I try to keep enough money to survive for 4+ months without any sales. I live cheap, so that's not a big problem. I do "expensive" software because it leads to a *sane* number of users. That's 1000+ users in more than 2 years, which allows me to keep up contact on a personal base and lets me go on doing stuff.

Well, although I earn less than in my former day job, I really love the way it is.

And if I should ever get broke or become greedy, I'd just put out those 9-10 cheapo plugins I got in my drawer. But that would certainly break my neck in terms of customer relations, workload and loss of reputation. (Same accounts for freebees, even if I didn't earn money with those, the workload would explode, naturally)

To sum up, there's a lot more factors than annual expectations, investment, whatever in ones business decisions. In my case, most decisions are based upon being careful.

Cheers,

Urs

[Gargoyle]

If Jorgen Aase can do it and keep the price at $49 and still earn a living making the program, I don't see why other developers can't.

Different market. The market for cheaper but powerful hosts is very different in nature from the market for cheap VSTi/Fx. Jorgen's also made a big bold move into it like Tracktion originally did. Don't forget also that eXT was a development from a different product called Massiva from which a lot of people (like me) came to eXT.

Besides, it's Jorgen's business to choose his own lifestyle choices for his own particular circumstances. I don't think it's fair to hold him up against other developers (who have their own choices and circumstances to consider)... particularly as he's half-human

As for your other point, I'll assume it was ironic

[whyterabbyt]

All you have to do is go to Musikmesse and look at the state of all the devs

pissed?

[duncanparsons]

...off?

[Gargoyle]

...their heads?

[kritikon]

why are most soft synths and effects so expensive?

I consider them pretty cheap in the general scheme of things. I'd rather be doing music now, with the huge choice and quality of alot of music s/w than 10-15 years ago when I couldn't buy anything of any quality for less than several hundred quid per item.

$150 can buy any of several VSTi that is capable of making a whole track with. That's damn good value. You can buy a multiFX in s/w that is generally better quality than any budget h/w multiFX for $100 or less. You can buy any main host for under $1000 that is a whole studio in one package (and if pushed, you wouldn't need to buy any separate plugins)...that also is good value IMO.


When I started out, maybe 5000 quid was needed to get any kind of studio together that was approaching good enough quality, and you could spend a whole lot more.

If you really wanted to, you could use complete freeware and still make decent quality music if you use it well.

I live in good times where music is not the sole realm of those with money or supportive family/friends or large bank loans and you don't even necessarily have to have dealings with a record label to shift product. As a kid with no money you have access to making music if you have a PC (which most kids seem to have nowadays).

Music has now turned into a hobby that can be way cheaper than many other hobbies, and it can be a cheap career if you want to go that route.

It's all a matter of perspective...

[dougsyo]

(e.g. Cameleon: 89 users bought it for $200, that would make approx $18.000, and the product has been around for about 2 years... )

CamelAudio has done surprisingly well on group buys. IIRC this was the second or third GB for their products. I got Cameleon & Camelphat the first GB and Camelspace this one.

Doug

[JonHodgson]

I'll put in my own personal experience and opinion here.

Firstly I don't think that plugins are expensive, with the impOSCar you get two man years of my work researching and developing, plus I don't know how much of Dave's testing and writing patches, and his sterling after sales support, plus the Graphic designer, Chris's time, involvement from the guys at Ohm Force and Fxpansion, and so on... for less than it would cost you to get your car serviced.

Secondly the idea that if things were cheaper they'd sell more is limited in accuracy
a) as Urs pointed out profit per unit goes down faster than you might expect, if anything fixed costs per sale go up with volume (because on average you get more amateurs, so more support issues).
b) Halve the price and the sales don't neccessarily double, this is the case for any product but unfortunately with software it's often worse since it is not just a question of whether somebody wants something and can afford it, but also whether they are either honest enough or consider the hassles involved with cracks enough to actually pay the money. Successful hardware synths which were too expensive for anyone but professionals or well off enthusiasts and only available in music shops sold in six or seven figure numbers (e.g. the DX7, equivalent to about 3 thousand pounds in todays money, sold 150,000, the D50 something like 450,000), the market for plugins (which are a fraction of the price and can reach anyone in the world with an internet link) should be HUGE, we should be able to sell plugins for the price of a book and still afford to take a holiday each year and send our kids to college (assuming we ever get away from the computer long enough to get married).... but 10,000 units is generally considered the Holy Grail for a VSTi, and I don't know if any has reached that... like Urs I only know of three reputed to have passed 5000.

And for anyone who thinks I'm just being greedy, well think what you like, but the truth is that people seem to like the impOSCar, it's had good reviews and I'm glad to say I've heard people making great music, all this gives me pleasure and pride, but speaking purely financially (the personal costs were much more), it's probably the worst return on my time since I graduated, and if I hadn't found other work I'd probably be bankrupt now, and I don't live expensively.

Some people manage to get by, and good luck to them, but nobody's getting rich.

As the saying goes, "art for art's sake, money for god's sake!".

[emdot_ambient]

Dudes, I can't believe what you're all paying for your freaking appartments.
My flat has 60 sqm, I have a garage next to it and I'm paying €400 for it. Add €100 for gas (warm water and radiators) and power. And that's about it.
And it's not even the cheapest price.
I can more or less easily get away with another €500 for insurances, telephone bills and food. And I'm not eating garbage.

Just goes to show you how things vary. I live in what used to be a rural county, but is now a commuter community for people working in the Washington DC area. I'm about 60 miles from both DC and Baltimore. You'd be hard pressed to find a 2 bedroom apartment here for less than $1,000 a month. €1,000/month for all your living expenses equates to about $1,215 US. Most people around here are shelling out (at the very minimum) $45 for basic cable TV service, $50 for electric, $50 for a cheap cell phone plan, $20 for a dial-up internet service, and probably $400 for food for one person. Renters insurance would run about $40 a month, auto insurance. So without auto payments, insurance, fuel & maintenance costs, about $1,600 a month is the minimum you'd pay here. (Assuming you're not carrying any credit card debt, which most Americans do have.) €1,316 a month min in your terms.

[nuffink]

I'll put in my own personal experience and opinion here.

Firstly I don't think that plugins are expensive, with the impOSCar you get two man years of my work researching and developing, plus I don't know how much of Dave's testing and writing patches, and his sterling after sales support, plus the Graphic designer, Chris's time, involvement from the guys at Ohm Force and Fxpansion, and so on... for less than it would cost you to get your car serviced.

Secondly the idea that if things were cheaper they'd sell more is limited in accuracy
a) as Urs pointed out profit per unit goes down faster than you might expect, if anything fixed costs per sale go up with volume (because on average you get more amateurs, so more support issues).
b) Halve the price and the sales don't neccessarily double, this is the case for any product but unfortunately with software it's often worse since it is not just a question of whether somebody wants something and can afford it, but also whether they are either honest enough or consider the hassles involved with cracks enough to actually pay the money. Successful hardware synths which were too expensive for anyone but professionals or well off enthusiasts and only available in music shops sold in six or seven figure numbers (e.g. the DX7, equivalent to about 3 thousand pounds in todays money, sold 150,000, the D50 something like 450,000), the market for plugins (which are a fraction of the price and can reach anyone in the world with an internet link) should be HUGE, we should be able to sell plugins for the price of a book and still afford to take a holiday each year and send our kids to college (assuming we ever get away from the computer long enough to get married).... but 10,000 units is generally considered the Holy Grail for a VSTi, and I don't know if any has reached that... like Urs I only know of three reputed to have passed 5000.

And for anyone who thinks I'm just being greedy, well think what you like, but the truth is that people seem to like the impOSCar, it's had good reviews and I'm glad to say I've heard people making great music, all this gives me pleasure and pride, but speaking purely financially (the personal costs were much more), it's probably the worst return on my time since I graduated, and if I hadn't found other work I'd probably be bankrupt now, and I don't live expensively.

Some people manage to get by, and good luck to them, but nobody's getting rich.

As the saying goes, "art for art's sake, money for god's sake!".

That's a highly depressing post for wannabee's like me.

Are any freeware dev's willing to put up download numbers?

[Muff Wiggler]

Tiny God and PJ Geerlings (NuBi) have had mind-numbingly dismal numbers, considering the quality and free-to-dirt cheap price points of their wonderful hand-coded products.

the numbers i've heard are actually unbelievable to be honest

i'm pretty inclined to agree with the IL guys when they say that they don't really consider VST a viable market. I think you have to be in it for the love and nothing more.