Basic theory problem that it seems to be overlook

[The Fex]

Yeeeeessss.... well, theory is only useful if you actually understand it.
Someone with a little natural talent and no theory might make good music. Someone with a little theory and no natural talent probably won't.
$0.02
So,what was the question?

[jancivil]

C PENTATONIC MINOR C, D#, F, G, A#
C BLUES C, D#, F, F#, G, A#
C HARMONIC MINOR C, D, D#, F, G, G#, B
C BEBOP MINOR C, D, D#, E, F, G, A, A#
there is more possible scales you can find at the second website below.

Well, actually no.

You see, there are reasons, which are at this juncture above your head, to spell things by their correct letter names.

C Eb F G Bb is how that 'pentatonic minor' reads.
the intervals to the 'flat' notes are minor thirds, not augmented seconds (eg., C - D#).

same error in the 'blues'.

now C Harmonic minor has actual different notes that what you have:
C D Eb* F G Ab B
is how that one reads.
(*again the minor third of your scale; Hence, MINOR in the name of such a scale.)

[The Fex]

And you can't forget there are thousands of viewers to this string looking for answers

Which is one reason to be careful about talking nonsense. It's a thread, btw.

[jc21161]

Input, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

[jc21161]

Basically the minor scales we're "not to understand blurb and factual mistakes" of music theory, excluding more recently and the early time of Greek music.

Many rock musicians do not use music theory other than the use of chords. One popular bass guitar player who has done commercials for Yamaha who's only use of music theory was to move half step hole step on the neck of his bass guitar around, he commented that people who use halfstep halfstep with strange music theory were strange themselves. So maybe it would be good to allow people to comment and give tips on the topic of this thread without rudely crossing Ts and dotting I s of music theory of the dark ages (I'm not taking about you jancivil.) Most viewers want to write songs yesterday, and not studied music for months....

The topic is basically, which of the three minor keys (for chord use) to use in relation to the scales of rock music.

Maybe pentatonic major/minor is used 99% of the time for rock but, many viewers may need help with hip-hop etc. I covered natural minor in the answer to the topic, in the key of C. I believe only one post so far has addressed the topic, I would like to see more, please please please please!!

I believe the bulk of the thousands of views to this thread see the words basic and theory and are in need of this most basic music theory information, that seems to be overlooked.

Comment and tips please! Thanks, OP.

[tapper mike]

More then three minor keys in rock.

Rock has more theory then is dreamt of in your philosopy.
Rockers are very music literate. Maybe not that nobody yahoo bass player.
Rock can play by rules of jazz and or blues but rock also has some rules of it's own that it plays by.

Popular keys in rock.
E-A-D-G ...minor major it doesn't matter.
Populsr doesn't mean only keys. Listen to enough rock and about the only keys you might not find are C# and Ab

In jazz the guide tones are the 3rd and the 7th degree. In rock the third is often ommitted or is considered less important. and the 7ths can be prevelant or not. The one and the five drive the chord (power chords). As such it's perfectly relavent to play a minor pentatonic lick over what could be considered a Major chord. Example: Sunshine of your Love Eric clapton.
Clapton plays major chords DDCD bass plays a decending D minor blues lick.

There are some scales that are preferred.
The blues scale
The minor pentatonic
The major pentatonic
Dorian
Mixolydian
Iolian
Aeolian
Harmonic Minor
Lydian

Scales are blended
One might start with a pentatonic shape and then proceed to a mixolydian shape. or vice versa.

Arpeggios as soloing.
Part of the appeal of the pentatonic scale is the simplicity of structure. Pentatonics cut to the chase. Arpeggios streamline the musical statement as well. nothing simplies the process of playing over changes like simply playing an arpegiated chord. Do a search for anything shred related and invariably you'll find a lesson in sweeping. a method to play an arpeggio quickly. Rakes (an old term for sweeping) and use of arpeggios is nothing new to rock.

Connosance and dissonance.
Modality states that as the chord changes the scale changes to accomodate.
This causes a same/same flux which is why Jazz players often use different means of subsitition especially when dealing with the V7 chord


In order to build a resolution one first needs a conflict to arise. An easy way to handle this musically is to retain the tonal center for the melodic line as the harmony shifts to a different chord.

While the heart of rock and roll is the beat it has many heads and hearts. A solid progression with a simple lick/riff is where the journey of rock begins.
Where you take it is based on your influences and desires. Who do you like? What do they do? All rockers stand on the shoulders of the giants that came before them. To play rock you need more then a scale or a few chords. You need a feel. Learning from songs teaches you more then just progressions and scales it gives you a feel.

[jc21161]

More then three minor keys in rock.

1]natural minor 2]harmonic minor and 3]melodic minor, in the key of C for reference in the future will reduce the number of keys, Just for simplicity.

Someone may say natural minor is the Aeolian mode (which it is) not a minor key, so there's just two minor keys. Just like a person here said the hip-hop scale is just a different scale but with a different note. Once you have a different note it's a different scale, UUURRRR!

Now we are starting to get somewhere!

Thanks, tapper mike, I'm not trying to suggest that you are trying to be difficult, there is many minor keys.

[Sascha Franck]

1]natural minor 2]harmonic minor and 3]melodic minor, in the key of C for reference in the future will reduce the number of keys, Just for simplicity.

Dorian minor is just as important as these. And it's completely irrelevant whether it builds up on the second degree of a major scale. Just the same as with natural minor.

[jc21161]

Hi Sascha Franck, I missed you, I looked on the map were your profile said, it looks like a fun place to be. Do they make love bugs there? Are you there now?
Talk to you later.

[Sascha Franck]

Hi Sascha Franck, I missed you, I looked on the map were your profile said, it looks like a fun place to be. Do they make love bugs there? Are you there now?

Wtf?

[jc21161]

No its WTF. LOL

[lotus2035]

Hi Sascha Franck, I missed you, I looked on the map were your profile said, it looks like a fun place to be. Do they make love bugs there? Are you there now?

Wtf?

I presume he is referring to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbie

[mattie]

you know, jc '61, i 've been watching the whole series of TWIN PEAKS again, after 5 year. It so great! Unconsieus tragedies in a thiller! I love David Lynch.
There is a girl, named lucy, working in the sheriffs office. You (or anybody) knows what's her last name?

mattie

[jc21161]

No not me, you got me curious though. I did a web search and found you can watch full episodes for free with high-speed, you may need a USA IP address though, but probably not. I see there's a picture gallery where you can probably find her name. This episode below has sheriff in its Description, I'll watch that one tonight, with you? It's filmed in my state about 100 miles north west of me (or at least the outdoor scenery.)

http://www.imdb.com/video/cbs/vi3657826329

Thanks mattie.

[tapper mike]

Here is the problem with trying to use The diatonic keys as a means of dissecting rock. It doesn't work 75% of the time once you have the songs in hand and try to do a harmonic/melodic analysis.


Chords do not follow the path of common diatonic structures.
Take a look at a popular rock chord progression

|I|bIII|IV|
After Midnight= Eric Clapton
Back in the USSR - The Beatles
Rock and Roll Hoochie Ko - Rick Derringer
The solo of Freebird - Lynard Skynard
and thousands of rock songs.
If one breaks the chords down lets say for C
C-E-G | Eb-G-Bb | F-A-C
You don't get a pretty diatonic structure add a dominant 7 to each of the chords and it is less so.
In rock any major chord can be a dominant seven not just the V
Any minor can be played as major

To solo one could use any number of principles.
The most common being.
C Minor Pentatonic based on the root chord
C Mixolydian based on the root chord.
C Dorian
Blues scale
Arpeggios

The C major (ionian) would be irregular for that type of structure it's too much filler and not enough meat. A metal band might apply a Lydian structure
as they like the tension of the augmented fouth. Major pentatonics are used in
less aggresive progressions. While they do have thier place in pop-rock, folk rock, country rock.
As for songs written in minor tonal centers Rockers prefer Natural7 chord structures.
Walk don't Run/ Stray Cat Strut are walk downs loosely based on constants
|i|bVII|bVI7|V7
While the melody of walk don't run is soley based on the natural minor
Stray Cat strut mixes the Pentatonic minor Dorian and the melodic minor.

How do scales jive with chord progressions that don't?

While soloing can be modal more often it is tonal in rock. It's not by chance or limitaions of knowledge. It's based on the concept of connsance and dissonance.
Play a C mixolydian scale over C and you have connosance.
Play a C mixolydian scale over Eb and you have dissonance/tension
Have that same scale played going from Eb major to F major and you have tension and release.


The more you know by playing actual music the more it shapes how you write music. Theory is only valid if it works for YOU. There is nothing right or wrong about writing a song with a simple progression (one or two chords), and the only thing stopping you from extending outside the boundries of diatonic principles is you.


Who are your influences? Can you repeat what they do? learn the entire song? Can you rewrite the song by transposition or altering the rythmic feel?
Every rock musician has atleast one primary influence. A starting point on the river is not an ending point. Eric Clapton is not Robert Johnson. Neil Pert is not Buddy Rich. Maroon 5 is neither Prince nor Peal Jam, but both were cited as groups they covered. To write rock you have to play rock. It's not sufficent to theorize and speculate on what someone could have been doing.