The Internet: All the music in the world that nobody's buying…

[stk]

this argument isnt necessarily valid, imho.
if there are more participants in the market, it doesnt mean the quality of web design gets better. the problem is that quality isnt an objective matter. quality is an intersubjective perception of what is common for the most successfull products.

same also counts for music. it has been discussed b4 at KVR: the fact everybody can make music means we have better musicians now?

So far, you're right: mass is by no means class

But, what i said is: If i have to compete with many contenders, i have to be better than the rest to get a job (that's the unwritten law of the market).[/quote]

More important to be in the right place at the right time.
I know a lot of useless web developers, since that's your analogy, who've tripped into plum jobs.

[deaf dunderkwac]

More important to be in the right place at the right time.

needs serious repeating

[amiga909]

More important to be in the right place at the right time.
I know a lot of useless web developers, since that's your analogy, who've tripped into plum jobs.

yes. u also need to be lucky if the market gives less chances.
but is it just luck?

i'll do my music, drop it on myspace and then its a matter of pure luck if i'll get discovered some day?

i think there is more about than a lot of luck and some musical skills:
i cant make a difference with professional skills alone cause in the global market there are always 10% which are even better than me.
it comes down to personality and being an 'authentic' guy.

the result of this requirement is a paradoxical thing i'd call 'professional authenticity'. this again requires PR (PR is basically about saying nothing while its still entertaining)

therefore PR is an important part of being a music star.

[stk]

Sure - by implying "luck" I by no means denigrate the talent or dedication behind the music.

I'm just saying - that initial break is often down to creating music that resonates with a) a significant zeitgeist, and (usually) b) a sympathetic label a&r person. The heavy PR usually comes later (backed by record label cash).
Also, often a truckload of old fashioned hard work.

Exhibit a) I met the guys from Mastadon (proabably only mean something if you're into metal / hard rock) a few years ago. They'd been on tour for like 6 months, constantly. Back and forth across the US, playing in dive bars and grassroots warehouse parties. My band caught up with them for a dozen shows or something, then flew off home. They kept on hammering away.
Fastforward and those guys are going great guns, equals parts good music, record label PR cash and really, really hard work.

I take my hat off to people who can sustain that level of work, regardless of genre.

[deaf dunderkwac]

nor am I implying all you need is luck... in fact I don't really believe in 'luck'.
It's having the talent to take advantage of a situation with either unique skills or by hard work.
It's knowing where to be and who to associate with.

[dj ray]

It's having the talent to take advantage of a situation with either unique skills or by hard work.
It's knowing where to be and who to associate with.

Oh yes! That last bit is absolutely essential no matter talent you have!

[rp314]

no. of bands ebbs and flows with the economic tides.
Nothing much has changed for the average musician wanting to exchange cash for their effort- you play live somewhere. Since the 50's/60's you'd supplement live performances with 45/LP/cd/dvd/usbflash sales at places you gig.

Well, I wish folks could go back to the "good old days" when artists were respected and valued more than they are today. Just think of that Vincent Van Gogh who actually sold one painting during his lifetime. What a lucky guy.

Or how about the many African-American musicians who created a good deal of the music we still hear nowadays. Think of all the record producers who sought them out to give them fair compensation for their efforts. Those fortunate bastards who didn't have to contend with the world of file sharing!

The more things change...

[Hitch]

I fell for the Spotify/Lady Gaga story. It was bunkum. *sigh* Apologies.

[A.M. Gold]

I think music without money would be a good thing.

The Beatles spent years upon years in Hamburg, where they honed their craft. It is estimated that they spent close to ten-thousand hours playing gigs there before they came to the United States. They were only able to do this because they got paid. If they had to worry about earning money through a full time day job, they would have only been able to practice for a fraction of that time.

Even if you don't like the Beatles, you get the picture. Look at ANY great artist in any genre throughout history.

The Beatles are a great example because, with all their native talent, it wasn't until AFTER they got signed and started working with some of the best people EMI could throw at them that they started really living up to their potential. George Harrison wrote some of the best Beatles songs, but it wasn't until YEARS into their pro careers that he started finding it in himself to do that.

Think all that would have happened if The Lads had stayed in Liverpool and worked in factories, banks, or drove busses for a living?

Think again.

I hate the fame and fortune seekers.
They are just prostituting music.

So, Mozart, Brahms, Handel, Beethoven... all of them were just prostituting music, huh? If you've studied music history for even five minutes you'll know that even in the baroque era, composers wrote music for money and many of them became wealthy superstars. Yet THEIR music is what we are still studying, performing, and holding lectures about hundreds of years later. Maybe you should rethink your position.

There is nothing wrong with earning money from music. Who cares what the motivation is of the artist or composer? As long as they produce great music, we should be happy with the result. Again, some of the most beautiful classical pieces ever to be written were done on commission, not out of some love for the art itself. By paying artists for music, it enables them to spend MORE TIME honing their craft, thus producing more and better music.

The idea that someone is "prostituting music" because they don't offer it willingly for free makes about as much sense as saying a farmer is "prostituting food" or a cab driver is "prostituting transportation".

I'd love to give my work away for free but I'd also expect free food, rent, and medical care as part of the bargain.

Funny how all of that doesn't come together in the real world we live in, though.

[A.M. Gold]

If you transpose the news-concept to music, the artist sells e.g. a hit to a Carmanufacturer who places the song on their site, offering it for free download. The artist get's his pay-check and the Company brushes up its image by sponsoring the artist. And last but not least, the customer gets the song for free. So, everybody is happy.

In short: traditional music business is dead! Long live the music Wink

So, you'd rather have a world where the success of a brilliant musicians depends on how well their music sells toilet paper, cars and cell phones, rather than how many people love the music? Because that's what you're saying - that instead of catering to the PUBLIC, the consumers of music, we are now catering to giant corporations who certainly care less about music than the "evil" major record labels did.

Sounds like a pyrrhic victory to me.

You didn't get me right

If you want to cater the consumers of music(as you've said), go to the club and play - there you'll get the Bucks you want.
That's what i am mainly talking about.
The times, when you released CDs/MP3 and got big sales are over.

The internet doesn't work like that.

To put the last paragraph right:
It works the other way around. If you have enough popularity and perhaps are "brilliant", you get the deal.

So if you want to earn money as an artist: perform live.

Except now there are 100x more bands that all want to perform live. It's much harder to get gigs than ever before, and clubs pay less because they know there are 10 bands lined up behind you that will play for chump change. So, that argument doesn't really work at all. The world of touring is doing OK but live performances are certainly declining in profitability.

Again, you nailed it. "Just play live, dude" is not an answer, and is in itself a bit of a red herring. With more and more bands either playing for nothing or having to literally "rent" time in front of an audience, the idea that "free" music distributed illegally over the internet is ok because musicians can always make a living off of performing just doesn't jibe with the facts these days.

What's more, the word "club" any more strongly implies DJ, not live music from actual performers.

[A.M. Gold]

but do give feedback to the artists, they really do appreciate it!

+111
A heartfelt email out of the blue means a hell of a lot more to me than an APRA cheque.

I try to encourage people to send a "thank you" email or, mercy me, a donation if they have enjoyed a free CC album. Most amateur net musicians work in obscurity and it means the world to them if they get a shiny, fluffy email saying that their music is great.

And some blogs have been known to get a bit teary if people leave comments, constructive criticism and expressions of undying love.

Compliments are nice but they are inexpensive and, to me, the greatest compliment someone could give me is to buy music from me when they don't have to because they could find a way around it through file sharing. If they go ahead and get it the legitimate way, and it takes some cash from their pocket, then that is like "putting their money where their mouth is" in terms of giving a compliment (i.e. actions really do speak louder than words).

[ckatrun411]

If your band sucks, what is wrong with pay 2 play? Most bands suck. Most bands suck big. Most bands suck big fat.



People are so f**king arrogant, "I'm entitled to fame and fortune cause I make, 'this sound,' bullshit dude!" A good band can still get very famous today, can still make good money, today. Is it the money def lep or acdc or bon jovi made? No..........

So what?

You should be a millionaire cause you play an instrument?

What about the 10 year old starving in, "wherever,' what is he/she entitled to?

[A.M. Gold]

No one is entitled to anything other than the legal protection of their copyrights.

[amiga909]

What's more, the word "club" any more strongly implies DJ, not live music from actual performers.

for electronic music, this is true.
electronic live acts are generally much lower paid than DJs. for big events live acts make up an additional value, but the masses will be attracted by names like tiesto or deadmaus. of course DJs try to make a difference with a show nobody can copy easily (light show, dancers, some kaosspad fx) but above all the audience pays for listening to pre-recorded music.

The heavy PR usually comes later (backed by record label cash).

thats exactly my point. this isnt totally valid anymore, i feel.
of course u need influential companies to get publicity via TV and magazines. and still WAY more people spend time on TV than the internet.
but u'r letting aside the type over-night-youtube-star. people that get coverage by magazines and newspapers because they have 1000k hits at youtube or become no. 1 at beatport.

[lilith2k3]

@A.M. Gold

With more and more bands either playing for nothing or having to literally "rent" time in front of an audience, the idea that "free" music distributed illegally over the internet is ok because musicians can always make a living off of performing just doesn't jibe with the facts these days.

That was not a justification for piracy.
Perhaps we leave the topic piracy, because it leads to false conclusions.

What about a platform like Jamendo, where you can get the stuff legally(sic!) for free? (okay, one could fund his favourite artist by using the paypal-button, but you don't have to).

Arguing against piracy is easy, because its illegality. But if there where no pirates anymore the problem i mentioned is not really solved. Music is available anytime, everywhere. The "big sales" are over.

How to make sure, that you as an artist have furthermore your income?

How to compete with legally free music?