NUSofting - Entity.

[Shabdahbriah]

... nevermind

[botkiller]

Here's my last word for you;

meh

[contrary]

I've always enjoyed working with Luigi ( on the rare occassion that I had a question or two or a little odd buggy with a program of his ) . Prompt , with good humor and always helpfull. I still have allot of soft synths ; these days I usually keep a non-chalant attitude when something new comes along .

Then the drama-rama about this comes along ; then I learn that the dsp has had Michael getting under the hood ; NOW I MUST DEMO


The forces behind this are to legit to not have a go with this synthy

[Michael_Olsen]

Hi people,

I just had a quick look to see if this thread could do without me until monday. Hmmm....

I will, again, try to keep it short:

A:
Whoever may feel insulted by my choice of design for this product: Please do mail me *privately*, or send me a private message if you do not have my email address.
I will be most happy to discuss this without involving the rest of the world.

B:
Yes, it has the layout that Nexsyn had (or almost has anyway). Because we like it. I mentioned this before, so there should probably be no reason to mention it again a third time, I hope.

C:
I cannot stress this enough: Let us (botkiller, nyquist, me) take this conversation off the forum. The signal-to-noise ratio is getting out of control in my opinion.


As for the x64 issue someone mentioned, I will get back to this in a post tomorrow.


All the best,

Michael

[Dr. Nyquist]

Michael, I will do you the favor and take this "offline", if you do me the favor and acknowledge my opinion regarding the similarities between NexSyn and Entity.

I'm not asking you to simply say "yeah, the GUI's the same". And I'm not asking you to say I'm right either.

I'm asking you (in front of all the people that are praising you and liqih for selling a synth comprised of modified 5 year old technology) to acknowledge the fact that yes, there are more similarities than just the GUI that might lead one to believe that Entity is just a re-hashed rip-off of NexSyn.

I'm talking about very similar "things" such as:

- The Framework used to build it (and other KeyToSound, Koblo, Kjaerhus Audio products)
- The preset format (which of course ties into the framework / .XXXpreset)
- The Noise generators (similar specs on paper)
- The modulation matrix (I can't see any obvious differences)
- MIDI functions (pretty close, if not exact)
- The Audio Signal Flow (looks pretty dang close, if not exact)
- The number of Filter and the types
- The Oscillator Types (except you added liqih's physical modeling in place of the XWM)
- The same number and types of effects
- Tube Saturation & Output limiter

It is very difficult to imagine that the only code shared between the two is the Reverb effect.

I am not going into a detailed discussion publicly about who had the rights at what points in time, etc. etc.

Why not? Companies usually provide this information in a copyright declaration, a licensing agreement statement or in a simple public press release. There is no official statement regarding this from you or your client NUSofting.

Be sure that Entity sounds nothing like nexSyn...

I made it in a way which sounded kind of like the Nexsyn (only "better", example above).

Uhhh.... okay. So, am I wrong to say it sounds like NexSyn, or is liqih wrong to say it doesn't? Or are we both right in a subjective kind or way?

So, hypothetically, it should be next to near impossible to crash Entity by reproducing a 4 year old bug that would crash NexSyn, right?

They look pretty much identical to me - esp the top panel, modules chooser amp env, and mod matrix - same wording, layout and everything - I'm sorry Luigi but the more I look at this I can't see how the similarities can be just coincidence - is this based on the old NexSyn code or something?

Everything is legal and legit of course. It does seem a bit odd to me that anyone would suggest otherwise, because why would you get such an idea?

Well, for starters, you're client is selling a synth that looks, functions, and sounds just like another synth. Secondly, that synth is still listed on this forum (and others) as another company's product and is still being sold on the internet. You don't think this could potentially confuse people? Thirdly, your client never officially announced any of this information. He released a synthesizer that looks and functions similarly to another without any explanation until users started to ask him about it. And then there's all the tech similarities listed above.

I'm just calling it like I see it. Sorry.

... I always found that Nexsyn had so much potential in it's basic design, but lacked something sound-wise (and I'm not even going to go into the business model! ...)

For all the things you disliked about us (KeyToSound / Koblo) as a company and the products we developed and sold (NexSyn), I have to ask - Is this business model working better for you?

I believe that I have made my points and I welcome any corrections, clarifications, and/or explanations. If not, that's fine too. It is what it is.

[contrary]

Them is some sour grapes !!

If I Use VAZ modular or Karma FX to make a synth that has the same topography or schematic signal flow are you going to stalk me from then on ???

He stated that he has over hauled and replaced the lions share of the code already . You need to let it go ; at this point you are only hurting yourself . Or continue to make a public spectical by pathetically lashing out .(I guess that's your perogative to )

[Nielzie]

You have to remember all the drama about NexSyn, KeyToSound, Koblo, Tone2, etc. etc... it was not pretty. Like I said I'm dumfounded to see a synth that looks just like NexSyn. And to discover that it opens NexSyn presets... what?!?
[/url]

What does Tone2 have to do with NexSyn, KeyToSound and/or Koblo??!

[Michael_Olsen]

Michael, I will do you the favor and take this "offline", if you do me the favor and acknowledge my opinion regarding the similarities between NexSyn and Entity.

In the spirit of ending this, I will reply to your comments below. But I think the wisest choice of action for me at this point is to say that this is my final word on this in this forum.

I'm talking about very similar "things" such as:
- The Framework used to build it (and other KeyToSound, Koblo, Kjaerhus Audio products)

The products you mentioned were based on a framework, which were based on my own framework (from before the time of those products).
So given that those products were based on technology for which I owned (and still owns) the legal copyright, then yes that is correct.

However, that is a bit of a simplification. If you look at your Entity installation you will see that it is using an .xml file for positioning some of the controls and adding text fields. As I am sure you know the products mentioned above did not use such technology, and you can use this as an example of how this is not the same code.

But as I said, some of the base gui, preset and file handling code (written by me some 8 years or so ago) is the same.

- The preset format (which of course ties into the framework / .XXXpreset)

The preset format is more less the same, yes.

For what it is worth, from a technical point of view I do not agree that the preset format necesarily ties into the framework. This is just an observation.

- The Noise generators (similar specs on paper)

The noise generators are using the same concepts and parameters, that is correct.

- The modulation matrix (I can't see any obvious differences)

The modulation also uses the same concepts. I am pretty sure we added some extra targets, but I do not recall the specifics at the moment. We also have a finer precision in the parameter adjustment (1 decimal compared to Nexsyns 0 decimals).

- MIDI functions (pretty close, if not exact)

I am not sure what you mean here exactly. If you are referring to the arpeggiator, then yes it has almost the same parameters and features, although it was rewritten due to being exceptionally buggy.
This is probably the module we spend the single most time on, but we really wanted to make it close to the original, since we found it have some rather interesting concepts.

- The Audio Signal Flow (looks pretty dang close, if not exact)

I agree. I changed something with the dry/wet of the effects I think, to accomodate the compressor and the (new) eq better, but that was all.

For what it is worth, this is probably one of the few things I am sorry we did not do differently. The signal flow is a bit confusing, and I think I made a mistake in not coming up with something else.

- The number of Filter and the types

Here I have to respectfully disagree. The Nexsyn filters were buggy, and most of them did not do what they claimed (like not being parellel even if claiming to be).
We kept the base 2-pole filter, fixed all the parallel/serial stuff, and added the 4-pole TB303 filter (which Robin gave us permission to use from the Open303 project, see the about box in Entity).
We also added a comb filter (filter 2, due to high memory use).

- The Oscillator Types (except you added liqih's physical modeling in place of the XWM)

Yes, we used the same oscillator types, and added physical modelling, plus hard sync-able alias-free triangle osc.

- The same number and types of effects

We redid the phaser, added the eq, added more features to the echo (basically redoing it I would say). The compressor and reverb are the same (based on my Timeworks algorithms anyway). The flanger was redone, and the chorus (one of them anyway) was redone using Luigis chorus algorithm.

I think all in all you will have to agree that the effect section is not the same, although I agree that 2 or 3 effects are identical.

- Tube Saturation & Output limiter

The tube saturation was redone (the original had a terrible noise floor, which completely killed the dynamics in my opinion).
I honestly do not remember off hand about the limiter.

Also the tube saturation and limiter were changed to use oversampling, since they were found to add too much aliasing for my taste.

I am not going into a detailed discussion publicly about who had the rights at what points in time, etc. etc.

Why not? Companies usually provide this information in a copyright declaration, a licensing agreement statement or in a simple public press release. There is no official statement regarding this from you or your client NUSofting.

If I am not mistaken, then there were a statement on the official NUSofting forum saying Entity was based on Nexsyn.

As to the "why not", then because I do not believe such a discussion belongs to the public space, or at least not unless some copyright were actually infringed.

Be sure that Entity sounds nothing like nexSyn...

I made it in a way which sounded kind of like the Nexsyn (only "better", example above).

Uhhh.... okay. So, am I wrong to say it sounds like NexSyn, or is liqih wrong to say it doesn't? Or are we both right in a subjective kind or way?

This is quibbling with semantics. No, it does not sound the same because Nexsyn was to a large extend using samples, which are not available in our product.

Yes, it sounds a bit the same because, as you say, the matrix is pretty much the same, and as we all know, a matrix is very important for a synth.

So, it depends on how you look at it, obviously.

So, hypothetically, it should be next to near impossible to crash Entity by reproducing a 4 year old bug that would crash NexSyn, right?

That certainly depends on the bug. If you know of a bug, please send a description to me so I can fix it.

... I always found that Nexsyn had so much potential in it's basic design, but lacked something sound-wise (and I'm not even going to go into the business model! ...)

For all the things you disliked about us (KeyToSound / Koblo) as a company and the products we developed and sold (NexSyn), I have to ask - Is this business model working better for you?

Maybe not, but at leats it is working better for the users. No keys locked to computers. No obvious bugs that were not attended to, etc. etc.


Anyway, as I mentioned at the top, I think this is all I have to say about it. This is honestly starting to feel like a personal attack. Maybe I am overly sensitive, I do not know.

If you want the final word, so be it. I am not interesting in discussions about this, so now that I have been given a chance to ensure our users that this is indeed legit, this is where I sign off on this debate.

My final statement on this is that I honestly do not see the issue. Nexsyn is not for sale any longer. We created a synth which has a lot of similarities, a synth where we tried to use the things we liked about Nexsyn, and change the things we did not like.
Some of the code base is the same. Some of this code I own the legal rights to use (like the Timeworks effects), and a small part of the code I have received the rights to use from the current owner. It is as simple as that.


I wish you all the best Jason,


Michael

[Michael_Olsen]

You have to remember all the drama about NexSyn, KeyToSound, Koblo, Tone2, etc. etc... it was not pretty. Like I said I'm dumfounded to see a synth that looks just like NexSyn. And to discover that it opens NexSyn presets... what?!?
[/url]

What does Tone2 have to do with NexSyn, KeyToSound and/or Koblo??!

For a short period of time, just before closing down, Koblo/KeyToSound resold Tone2 products from their website. Then there were a falling out, something about numbers not agreeing. You can search old messages on kvr for the complete story.

Now, please can we get back to talking about what is good and what is bad about Entity? Who likes the presets? Who does not? What can we improve?

Please?

: - )


Michael

(edited for rephrasing)

[Dr. Nyquist]

Michael, I will do you the favor and take this "offline", if you do me the favor and acknowledge my opinion regarding the similarities between NexSyn and Entity.

In the spirit of ending this, I will reply to your comments below. But I think the wisest choice of action for me at this point is to say that this is my final word on this in this forum.

Thank you.

[Nielzie]

You have to remember all the drama about NexSyn, KeyToSound, Koblo, Tone2, etc. etc... it was not pretty. Like I said I'm dumfounded to see a synth that looks just like NexSyn. And to discover that it opens NexSyn presets... what?!?
[/url]

What does Tone2 have to do with NexSyn, KeyToSound and/or Koblo??!

For a short period of time, just before closing down, Koblo/KeyToSound resold Tone2 products from their website. Then there were a falling out, something about numbers not agreeing. You can search old messages on kvr for the complete story.

Ahh ok, thanks for the explanation and good luck with Entity. I'll give the demo a spin

[trimph1]

As I am trying to type around my cat here-so there is a demo available now?

[projectdan]

As I am trying to type around my cat here-so there is a demo available now?

Its been available for a few months, along with the synth being on sale.

http://www.nusofting.liqihsynth.com/entity.html

As for feedback on the synth. I liked the presets in general, I suspect those who werent impressed want more modern or fancy presets.

[jensa]

As I am trying to type around my cat here-so there is a demo available now?

Its been available for a few months, along with the synth being on sale.

http://www.nusofting.liqihsynth.com/entity.html

If you know the URL it's easy to find. If you don't, it's a lot harder since it's not linked to from within the website. Might be an idea. Btw, I've already bought it and love it!

[GJK]

tried the demo.. whoa... bugs galore.. using the 64 bit version with windows vista and flstudio 10... upon loading the gui is black until i open and close the wrapper window.. some kind of invalid argument error dialog pops up from flstudio.. then there are stuck notes.. im hearing one note for every 3 keys played.. i do like the sounds that i am hearing though.... are these known issues..??