KVR Audio

cefshah · Post by **cefshah** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:09 pm

anzoid wrote:You could check out 4Front's "TruePianos" and the very very recently (like yesterday) released Pianoteq 4 by Modartt. They're both physically modelled pianos rather than a bunch of samples (no offense to samples...) From what I understand they have both been used on solo projects quite successfully.

I can vouch for Pianoteq-4; it does sound awesome, but very importantly... is expressive.

I judge virtually any electronic instrument on how expressive it is. Nothing (IMO) is worse than putting your "human" thing into something, and not getting it back out.

Tubeman · Post by **Tubeman** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:21 pm

ariston wrote:
Tubeman wrote: Not a real test but here's a sample of five different pianos played at A0 max velocity, no reverb (all plugins). Any of them sounding funny?
Yeah, it's funny, they all sound like different pianos to me. I'm laughing my ass off right now, even though you can't hear it over the internetz.

I.... am..... losing..... patience with this crapola. PT is a physmod synth capable of doing pianos, marimbas, e-pianos, glockenspiels, etc. It can achieve very different piano timbres, from realistic to totally weird. It is the one piano plugin that plays like a real instrument. Taking one note out of one patch played at maximum velocity is complete and utter bullshit.

What, exactly, are you trying to prove? Do you play the piano? Have you tried PT with the guidance given in this thread? Have you even followed the line of argumentation in this thread? This awful example (and your earlier question) proves you're just baiting teh troll.

I really admire Brent's equanimity in dealing with this foolishness.

Ok, take a deep breath, no need to rip your hair. Maybe it's a good thing I don't hear you laughing over the internetz.

Not trying to prove or argue anything. Just wanted to see if others are hearing the same thing as me.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:23 pm

Yes, I'm hearing the same thing as you, but I wouldn't classify it as "funny". I would classify it as "a legitimate piano timbre", because I indeed crossed over several pianos who had such bell-like timbre in the lowest registers.

ariston · Post by **ariston** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:34 pm

Tubeman wrote: Ok, take a deep breath, no need to rip your hair. Maybe it's a good thing I don't hear you laughing over the internetz.

Not trying to prove or argue anything. Just wanted to see if others are hearing the same thing as me.

You should see my hair (or the lack thereof, heh)!

You know, the funny thing is, I couldn't resist doing what you did - play an A0 at max velocity through different PT4 patches (and did you notice that your examples are not all at A0, btw?). I didn't hear one that was close to the ones you posted. Mind posting the patch you used in your example? Or is it that famous degenerative Soundcloud encoding?

Burillo · Post by **Burillo** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:35 pm

i remember i was playing on my keyboard with Pianoteq 3, and suddenly my cat jumped on it. i've heard numerous cats jumping on real pianos' keyboards, and Pianoteq's take on that was very realistic.

koolkeys · Post by **koolkeys** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:05 pm

Single note tests are not going to be very effective. In a single note test, you aren't going to show much.

FWIW, all of the notes in that 'test' could be considered real. I'm not going to venture a guess though. Also, you have to decide how fair it is to use different piano models. Are you comparing a Bosendorfer A0 to a Yamaha C7 A0?

Deciding what is best from such a test is kind of pointless, especially considering that no piano truly displays it's character without being played.

I'm going to put together a blind test soon. I haven't decided the parameters yet, but I will make it as fair as possible without being too clinical(as in, you can't just play the same MIDI file through two pianos and make a fair judgement- while it may seem "fair", it's inaccurate.)

Brent

koolkeys · Post by **koolkeys** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:08 pm

Burillo wrote:i remember i was playing on my keyboard with Pianoteq 3, and suddenly my cat jumped on it. i've heard numerous cats jumping on real pianos' keyboards, and Pianoteq's take on that was very realistic.

They actually used real kittens in the modeling of Pianoteq, modeling different types of paws, including declawed ones, to ensure the accurate textures you hear.

No kittehs were harmed except for the ones who fell off on their own stupidity.

Brent

Tubeman · Post by **Tubeman** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:10 pm

ariston wrote:You should see my hair (or the lack thereof, heh)!

You know, the funny thing is, I couldn't resist doing what you did - play an A0 at max velocity through different PT4 patches (and did you notice that your examples are not all at A0, btw?). I didn't hear one that was close to the ones you posted. Mind posting the patch you used in your example? Or is it that famous degenerative Soundcloud encoding?

How do you know one of them is PT4? Which one(s) if any? You're right there seems to be some out of tune ones but all are playing the key A0 with unmodified settings (other than reverb off) and those which have tuning option are all tuned to 440. I don't know what Soundcloud does to the samples, I uploaded a 44.1kHz 24-bit uncompressed wav file. If I say what they are now, people say we hear something because we know what they are.

I once heard a funny story in a music store that sold both real pianos and digital pianos. The salesman (who had sold pianos for a long time) said that most of the time, when people come to buy or try a piano, the first thing they do when trying them is hit the highest key or slam the lowest key, or both. No difference if they were amateurs or seasoned pianists.

koolkeys · Post by **koolkeys** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:15 pm

Tubeman wrote: How do you know one of them is PT4? Which one(s) if any?

Because in the other thread, where you originally posted it, you said that Pianoteq was in there.

Brent

koolkeys · Post by **koolkeys** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:17 pm

Tubeman wrote:
ariston wrote:You should see my hair (or the lack thereof, heh)!

You know, the funny thing is, I couldn't resist doing what you did - play an A0 at max velocity through different PT4 patches (and did you notice that your examples are not all at A0, btw?). I didn't hear one that was close to the ones you posted. Mind posting the patch you used in your example? Or is it that famous degenerative Soundcloud encoding?
How do you know one of them is PT4? Which one(s) if any? You're right there seems to be some out of tune ones but all are playing the key A0 with unmodified settings (other than reverb off) and those which have tuning option are all tuned to 440. I don't know what Soundcloud does to the samples, I uploaded a 44.1kHz 24-bit uncompressed wav file. If I say what they are now, people say we hear something because we know what they are.

I once heard a funny story in a music store that sold both real pianos and digital pianos. The salesman (who had sold pianos for a long time) said that most of the time, when people come to buy or try a piano, the first thing they do when trying them is hit the highest key or slam the lowest key, or both. No difference if they were amateurs or seasoned pianists.

But in that case, they aren't trying to do a blind test. They know if they are trying a real piano or not, and they likely just want to hear the character of the piano.

I don't care though if they are seasoned or beginner, it's a horrible test to judge a piano by if you're in a music store.

Brent

Sampleconstruct · Post by **Sampleconstruct** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:28 pm

Why doesn't everybody agree on the fact that there is no "best plugin for solo piano works" and discuss something more inspiring instead?

opus_diaboli · Post by **opus_diaboli** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:41 pm

koolkeys wrote:Most "pro" pianists won't use samples or plugins at all. They will use a real piano.

Again: I know at least two pianists who used a sample library for an album release. One of those is a graduate, he studied piano and composing and he just didn't have the money to go to a studio. The second one actually is an established musician, I'm not sure why he was using Ivory. But again: show me one pianist who's using PT for a solo piano recording. Maybe there are some, but I really doubt.

Of course you need a plugin you can listen to, and Pianoteq is designed to be listened to as with any other plugin.

Again: there're untrained music consumers who were able to recognize that kind of artificial sound. Well, I don't want to say the same stuff again and again, but ... it was an older version and the new release is much better.

I only mention this because some people who criticize Pianoteq have not played it,

Maybe, but I don't belong to this group.

or can't play.

I don't belong to this group either. And since I also have some experience in mixing, I actually have trained ears. Not those kind of mysterious "golden ears" like some mastering engineers might have, but good enough to distinguish a real sounding plugin from a not so real sounding one.

And they wonder why it doesn't sound as good when they play their MIDI files through it.

Pointless as far as I'm concerned. You try to defend your arguments by questioning other people skills. Which is, by the way, a doubtful strategy.

opus_diaboli · Post by **opus_diaboli** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:49 pm

Sampleconstruct wrote:Why doesn't everybody agree on the fact that there is no "best plugin for solo piano works" and discuss something more inspiring instead?

Because it's fun.

No, seriously, as I stated a few month ago (same topic) there might not be a "best plugin", but following your point e.g. means to buy a 29 bucks Casio toy keyboard and claiming that there's no such a thing like a best plugin (in terms of sound). But you know as well as I do that it sounds horrible. This is just an extreme example to clarify my standpoint, it has nothing to do with the sound quality of Pianoteq, of course.

lingyai · Post by **lingyai** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:14 pm

koolkeys wrote:
Burillo wrote:i remember i was playing on my keyboard with Pianoteq 3, and suddenly my cat jumped on it. i've heard numerous cats jumping on real pianos' keyboards, and Pianoteq's take on that was very realistic.
They actually used real kittens in the modeling of Pianoteq, modeling different types of paws, including declawed ones, to ensure the accurate textures you hear.

No kittehs were harmed except for the ones who fell off on their own stupidity.

Brent

lingyai · Post by **lingyai** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:15 pm

Sampleconstruct wrote:Why doesn't everybody agree on the fact that there is no "best plugin for solo piano works" and discuss something more inspiring instead?

Because this is like... grrrravely serious stuff. Didn't you know?

Best Plugin For Solo Piano Works ???