"Logic Pro X will eventually be sandboxed"

[chk071]

Well, why is MP3 still the major audio compression format? Because they sell "MP3"-Players. There's better and more efficient compression formats on the market, but people know MP3 and the market delivers it. That said, i don't know about the LV2 standard. It might have some issues, or doesn't cover everything VST does, so maybe there is another reason than the one i posted. But i wouldn't bet on it.

[Crandall1]

Several attempts at other plug-in formats have come and gone since we've been in this business. They've all devolved in to a Lord Of The Flies style pissing match. Ultimately, to make a living making plug-ins, you have to have support for the DAWs people most use. These are Live, Logic, and Cubase. (And PT, if you're in to that sort of thing.) Logic and Cubase have their own formats, and will never support some third-party FOSS format. And there you have it.

Basically, any other format is stillborn. Plain and simple.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[pc999]

Steam (or something similar) could have all the potential benefits but still is a open environment that let users do whatever they what, but happy sheeps/morons are profitable.

I thought you couldn't sell Steam stuff either? Seems pretty much the same?

Actually they just announced a sharing feature, where you can lend your games to family/friends... Rumors say they are preparing some form of trading system too.


But yah for now it is a NFR system.

[dayjob]

they might as well sandbox LogicProX. it's full of so many damn bugs.. put a headstone in the sandbox and some flowers too.

i've spent the last few days mixing a track.. first track i've dared mix in logicX.. and it's been a drag. lot's of things to get used to which is not the drag.. the drag is the gui bugs.. random things.. and trying to tidy up some edits is pointless. audio editing in logic is still useless and stupid.

it's probably time to move on anyways... so go ahead.. sandbox it. FU apple and all your bad logicX code and stupid UI. what a waste.

/rant

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[Jace-BeOS]

Reading this thread doesn't make me hate on Apple. It makes me hate on the entire computer industry for being such a pile of BS, excuses, lies and workarounds. i've been around with software on various OSs, and my experience ends up the same every time: everything is junk. Some is worse junk, and everything works in utter isolation from everything else (which is not how reality works, but that's what developers think). The biggest difference between products of a genre is the learning curve involved till you get to the broken stuff. Once you do, you either live with it because the end result of getting some work/fun accomplished is compensatory enough, or you move on to the next learning curve and broken stuff.

i've encountered a few products that didn't suck, but they do now (thanks, Adobe). These market driving companies don't care. About anything. Money is the only thing that matters to them. Once you get to that point, it doesn't matter what product it is and what customer feedback they get. There's too much legacy in computing to continue building on what is already there, but that's the way almost ALL computer industry product works, and anyone who tries to abandon legacy does it badly or the developers/user/geeks revolt against change. Or both.

If some company provides me with a platform of hardware and software that reliably works, i'll use it. Till then, i keep trying to tread water with this insane computer industry crap. Right this moment, the least suffering i've experienced is with Apple's variety of broken.

[Davias]

I wonder why a format like LV2 didn't took on windows or mac... With an unified Open standard plugin format every developer could say f*#k to the majors. But I didn't dig into LV2 specs enough to understand why it failed...

f***k to the majors? do you really think for example steinberg would support LV2 instead of their VST? at the end it's a plugin (LV2 or whatever) which must be working in a daw.

I was just paraphrasing another poster with the "f** to the majors" Just if a new standard emerge, and non-steinberg daws offers support for it (along with vst, au, whatever). and devs provide theirs plugins in this new format, then only a few daws will not be compatibles (cubase, pro tools, logic, another one ?) with these new cross platform and cross daw plug-ins. It could mean I could switch os tomorrow without loosing any of my plugs. I don't know I was thinking that could be nice to only have one good format instead of many differents ones that u cannot always use everywhere or with full potential.

[bmrzycki]

It makes me hate on the entire computer industry for being such a pile of BS, excuses, lies and workarounds. i've been around with software on various OSs, and my experience ends up the same every time: everything is junk.

Reminds me of this classic:

[Arglebargle]

interesting thread. seems like a turbulent time for the daw industry...

[Jace-BeOS]

It makes me hate on the entire computer industry for being such a pile of BS, excuses, lies and workarounds. i've been around with software on various OSs, and my experience ends up the same every time: everything is junk.

Reminds me of this classic:

Yeah, that's generally been my attitude for a very long time now. It started when BeOS came on the scene, and intensified when BeOS failed to achieve anything in the market. It wasn't ideal, but it did a few things 100% right (such as treat the user as the most important process).

[MadBrain]

Reading this thread doesn't make me hate on Apple. It makes me hate on the entire computer industry for being such a pile of BS, excuses, lies and workarounds. i've been around with software on various OSs, and my experience ends up the same every time: everything is junk. Some is worse junk, and everything works in utter isolation from everything else (which is not how reality works, but that's what developers think).

Programming is hard. Once a program grows past a certain size, there's just too many interactions going on and it becomes exponentially harder to keep track of them. This is the cause of what you're talking about and nobody has found the solution yet (if there even is one).

[pdxindy]

If sandboxing also means that they'll check the signed binaries then I'm all for it. We had our stuff tested and it basically works - presets load and save, resources load, but preferences don't save yet (might move to presets directory then). No crashes yet.

My hope is that this is merely a pre-cursor to open the App Store for plug-ins. We might try this as an alternative model and see how it works. Apple's 30% cut will have to be met by upgrade costs, so that the stuff turns a bit into a subscription model. I guess this is where it's going with this, and with cloud based models.

I can't imagine that Apple is forcing us to go App Store because, well, too many popular people would be too pissed off to loose their tools.

Adobe went the cloud based model. I've made piles of money with PS... For the longest time it was my favorite software. But I will not be upgrading again and if the point comes where I cannot keep using Adobe software without joining the cloud model, I will use something else.

[BenLoftis]

I see a lot of interesting points in this thread.

These problems have been around for years, if not decades. Ever since the computer came along, the audio industry has been wrecked by wave after wave of IT-driven technology cycles, bean-counter money-grabs, and fickle company "focus shifts". We are doing some interesting things at Harrison to try to break the cycle.

The audio industry developed fastest in the early days, when you could open the lid on your LA-2A and poke around inside. Theoretically, open source software would allow users to "open the lid" and start really innovating again. But in practice, open source can bog you down in linux details and academia. Our solution is to make the open-source Ardour workstation "fun" with Mixbus, and also make it easily buildable - by users - on all 3 OS's. We aren't done yet but it gets easier to build with each release.

In theory, plugin support could be drastically better if the host were open-source, and plugin developers could see what the host is doing. In practice this isn't the case; the majority of plugin developers don't have resources to study host code, even if it's available (most of them have day jobs). Developing a plugin for a target system is a crapshoot because of vague specs, hosts that make their own plugins, and tremendous variations across systems. Our solution: we use the LV2 plugin format which is fully open on both the host and plugin side. So we can work both sides of the fence, being totally open to input from host _or_ plugin devs.

In theory, serious users should be switching to Linux in droves because Windows and OSX are increasingly catering to casual users. In practice, though, plugin devs and I/O maufacturers can't adopt linux because the ecosystem doesn't exist there, yet. Our solution: Mixbus runs on Windows, Mac, and Linux. All our plugins run on all 3 platforms, too. So you can get used to Mixbus on Windows and then move to Linux ( or SteamOS ... ) when the time is right.

Anyway, I just want you guys to know that "someone" is also recognizing these problems and working towards a solution. I think things will be better for the audio industry in a few years. It seems like "desktop" computing is no longer the focus of so much radical innovation, so we can start focusing on our craft rather than keeping up with platforms. Desktop computers might get a little more expensive again, but I think it will be better for people who are using them to get work done. A lot of casual users have moved to tablets and phones, so hopefully the consumer companies will focus their disruptive efforts on those fronts for a while.

Let me know what you think!

-Ben

[Alfalfa]

Let me know what you think!

I wonder if a VE Pro type of bridge from a Windows PC to a Linux PC might help move Linux-based DAWs forward. I'd be curious to run a Linux DAW, but the inability to run VST's and VSTi's stops my speculating. It's being done more and more by Logic users who want to leverage the cheaper power of a Windows PC for fx and synths. Then, perhaps a slow migration to Linux for plugins may happen. I honestly don't find the host with plugins model to be that compelling. I think I'd rather just boot up a synth machine and start playing.