Cakewalk Kinetic

[oluf]

To Cakewalk_Mark and others from Cakewalk:
Also tell me please, why a european sonar customer doesn't get the full english manual, but just a printed helpfile in 3 languages!

Is this true? I'm based in the UK and am saving up to buy either Sonar or Cubase, but the fact that Sonar is meant to come with a good 600+ page manual was swaying me more towards Sonar than Cubase.. Maybe I should reconsider...

Paul

In a relatively recent CM (don't remember which issue, sorry) they mention that Cakewalk is including a full print version of the manual now, due to popular demand.

Just to back that up, here in Canada, I did indeed get the full printed manual when I purchased Sonar 3PE.

Oluf

[Mr. Slater's Parrot]

mojkarma:
Again, I'm sorry for my initial words.

No problem; I understand your frustration.

It seems to me that Cakewalk is more active in their user forums right after a release because they want to respond quickly to any unknown and unexpected problems that often come up immediately after a release when lots of users start to install and use it. I don't think it's a marketing ploy, really.

Also, Cakewalk officials have indicated on the Sonar forum that an internal metronome would be added to the next version of Sonar that includes new features. They also said they couldn't put it into a patch of the current release without risking stability.

[mojkarma]

In a relatively recent CM (don't remember which issue, sorry) they mention that Cakewalk is including a full print version of the manual now, due to popular demand.

Just to back that up, here in Canada, I did indeed get the full printed manual when I purchased Sonar 3PE.

The full print version of the manual is included only in the english/american version. I guess you have this version that is sold in the USA, UK and Canada. Generally, in Europe, they sell an EURO Sonar version and it includes a common manual for three languages: english, german and french. Every lanugage version contains ca. 250 pages and it is actually a printed version of the help file. The pictures are in a terrible low resolution, you can't almost see what they show.

The question is: if you are a beginner, you cannot read a complete documentation about every single feature that the program has or how it works. You also don't have a pdf.

Tell me, is that professional? They sey that their program is the most one used in the world, and they are not able to translate the right, whole manual into german or french or at least sell to everybody the full english version.

Also, Cakewalk officials have indicated on the Sonar forum that an internal metronome would be added to the next version of Sonar that includes new features. They also said they couldn't put it into a patch of the current release without risking stability.

Yes, I know that. They also said that they will not put out any update for Sonar3. I could write a really, really long post about what is not so perfect (I will not call them bugs) in Sonar3 and what is missed, compared to the competition. I'm happy for all you who are satisfied with sonar3, I was not, bought Cubase SL2 and found that it has far more features and a significantly better workflow, even it is a streamed down version of SX2.

I will not pay for any further Sonar update, just to get the same things, that Cubase, Logic has for a long time (audiometronome, mute tool, folder tracks, etc.).

Peace

[Rabid]

I don't know how anyone ever made music before having audiometronome, mute tool and folder tracks.

Whether of not your version of Sonar 3 comes with a printed manual I suggest two good books; Sonar 3 Ignite and Sonar 3 Power. On Amazon.com they can be found for $13.99 and $20.39 US. I use these rather than the printed manual.

Robert

[pgroves]

The full print version of the manual is included only in the english/american version. I guess you have this version that is sold in the USA, UK and Canada.

I might pop into a local music store at the weekend just to see if Sonar does actually come with a manual in the UK these days...

Generally, in Europe, they sell an EURO Sonar version and it includes a common manual for three languages: english, german and french. Every lanugage version contains ca. 250 pages and it is actually a printed version of the help file. The pictures are in a terrible low resolution, you can't almost see what they show.

The question is: if you are a beginner, you cannot read a complete documentation about every single feature that the program has or how it works. You also don't have a pdf.

Tell me, is that professional?

No its not, but you don't get a full printed manual with Cubase either these days, I thought, just a slim "getting started" guide, which is one of the reasons I was favouring Sonar over Cubase, as the Sonar manual was meant to be very good.

What kind of manual did you get with Cubase SL?

cheers

Paul

[mojkarma]

What kind of manual did you get with Cubase SL?

I think I know in what direction your question goes, but anyway:

I get a printed "Getting started" manual in english, german and french, all separate prints (~250 pages) and in pdf format the user manual (over 800 pages) and other specific manuals that explains in depth the included plug-ins and the remote control functions.

I hope you understand the problem: I didn't get anything else with my sonar3 but the printed helpfile in form of a manual. With Cubase I got at least a pdf, but nothing with sonar3, just 250 pages of the printed helpfile from the help menu.

To resume the manual story, why couldn't somebody from Cakewalk give me/us the answer about different manuals (for different markets)? They are here explaining Kinetic.

I don't know how anyone ever made music before having audiometronome, mute tool and folder tracks.

Making music is one thing, and composing music with a computer, tracking program, recording, mixing, etc. is a completely another thing; or should we all go back and use a tape-recorder?

[christianmusicmaker]

To Cakewalk_Mark and others from Cakewalk:
Also tell me please, why a european sonar customer doesn't get the full english manual, but just a printed helpfile in 3 languages!

Is this true? I'm based in the UK and am saving up to buy either Sonar or Cubase, but the fact that Sonar is meant to come with a good 600+ page manual was swaying me more towards Sonar than Cubase.. Maybe I should reconsider...

Paul

Paul put your mind at rest. I am a UK (London) Sonar3 user and I have a 640 page manual that came with my copy of Sonar 3.

I have tried Cubase SL and the constant crashes made me swap it for Project 5 instead. The manual for Sonar 3 is very detailed indeed.If the maunual is what is stopping you from getting Sonar...I got my copy last year through etcetera...no problems... *with* the 640 page manual.

Rest easy.

[mojkarma]

The manual for Sonar 3 is very detailed indeed.If the maunual is what is stopping you from getting Sonar...I got my copy last year through etcetera...no problems... *with* the 640 page manual.

I already have Sonar 3 and I know every aspect of it and how it works. It was a long way to learn the software thru trial and error. I'm talking here about two kinds of customers: does who get and those who doesn't get the manual.

It is not my intention to put sonar down or to tell anybody how bad it is or not. We all use different tools for our work and we all know that there is not the best one that does anything. I just thought, i'll jump in and maybe somebody from Cakewalk will answer my question, because they didn't on the official forum, neither did they answer my e-mail.
Remember: I'm a registered, legal owner of S3PE, purchased here in Europe from Roland for 720 €.

So far, I'm still waiting for an answer from the guys at Cakewalk.

[christianmusicmaker]

Have you tried the Sonar forum?

[pgroves]

Is this true? I'm based in the UK and am saving up to buy either Sonar or Cubase, but the fact that Sonar is meant to come with a good 600+ page manual was swaying me more towards Sonar than Cubase.. Maybe I should reconsider...

Paul

Paul put your mind at rest. I am a UK (London) Sonar3 user and I have a 640 page manual that came with my copy of Sonar 3.

Thanks for the info., that's useful to know

I have tried Cubase SL and the constant crashes made me swap it for Project 5 instead.

Sonar and Project 5 sounds like a good combination to have, so I don't think you've done too badly out of the swap

Paul

[pgroves]

What kind of manual did you get with Cubase SL?

I think I know in what direction your question goes,

but anyway:

I get a printed "Getting started" manual in english, german and french, all separate prints (~250 pages)

Do you mean each language gets its own 250 page "Getting Started" guide? That's quite good if that's the case

and in pdf format the user manual (over 800 pages) and other specific manuals that explains in depth the included plug-ins and the remote control functions.

I hope you understand the problem: I didn't get anything else with my sonar3 but the printed helpfile in form of a manual. With Cubase I got at least a pdf, but nothing with sonar3, just 250 pages of the printed helpfile from the help menu.

Sure, I understand the problem and sympathise - I think it sucks the way proper printed manuals aren't supplied with boxed products these days, and the lack of a PDF (even just an English one) for Sonar is inexcusable, this would be trivial to generate from the source for the paper manual (which must have been in some kind of electronic format originally.) BTW I've also heard that VSampler (which comes with Sonar 3 Producer) comes with no documentation, printed or otherwise, which definitely sucks, as it looks quite a complex plug-in...

BTW, I noticed that you can actually get a printed 800+ page official reference guide to Cubase SX/SL, though you have to pay for it, see:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... ct-details

BTW thanks for all the information guys!

cheers

Paul

[christianmusicmaker]

The manual for Sonar 3 is very detailed indeed.If the maunual is what is stopping you from getting Sonar...I got my copy last year through etcetera...no problems... *with* the 640 page manual.

I already have Sonar 3 and I know every aspect of it and how it works. It was a long way to learn the software thru trial and error. I'm talking here about two kinds of customers: does who get and those who doesn't get the manual.

It is not my intention to put sonar down or to tell anybody how bad it is or not. We all use different tools for our work and we all know that there is not the best one that does anything. I just thought, i'll jump in and maybe somebody from Cakewalk will answer my question, because they didn't on the official forum, neither did they answer my e-mail.
Remember: I'm a registered, legal owner of S3PE, purchased here in Europe from Roland for 720 €.

So far, I'm still waiting for an answer from the guys at Cakewalk.

I know what you mean about trial and error. I wanted to go in at the deep end of music software and started with Sonar 2.2, now on Sonar 3 Studio. Not easy but I have gained a good deal of knowledge and experience along the way.

I don't think you were trying to put Sonar down after all as you said you...bought it! :wink

[christianmusicmaker]

BTW I've also heard that VSampler (which comes with Sonar 3 Producer) comes with no documentation, printed or otherwise, which definitely sucks, as it looks quite a complex plug-in...

I use V sampler and it is a massive plug / sequencer / Sampler it has 4 step sequencers and a 16 channel mixer! But there are now about 2 or 3 pdf's quite detailed that are available from the Vsampler site.

It has for me the most complete support for just about every format out there..Kontakt, Halion e.t.c

[mojkarma]

Do you mean each language gets its own 250 page "Getting Started" guide? That's quite good if that's the case

Yes, again: I have 3 separate "Getting started with SX/SL" books for the respective language. The other stuff (pdf) is on the Install CD. All together, there is over 1400 pages of information you get for Cubase.

BTW I've also heard that VSampler (which comes with Sonar 3 Producer) comes with no documentation, printed or otherwise, which definitely sucks, as it looks quite a complex plug-in...

There is a first part of the manual as a pdf on the website for vsampler, but yes, it is not complete yet, but I wouldn't say that this is Cakewalks fault, because Vsampler is not their product.

However, selling a software and not giving an appropriate manual, well, at this point I'm in the same boat with crackusers!

[christianmusicmaker]

Is this the first response from Cakewalk to Live 4's shockwave announcement?

Kinetic opens up a bit more...

A patch will soon be released for Kinetic allowing for direct usage within Sonar.