I finally understood modes

[Farnaby]

The song is clearly written in the Mode of D.

What on earth is the mode of D?

[vurt]

The song is clearly written in the Mode of D.

What on earth is the mode of D?

the dorian scale.

[Farnaby]

you can start any mode on D though

[vurt]

you can start any mode on D though

was kind of a joke, as key, scale, modes are not the same thing, but he was mixing terms, so i did too...

[Fannon]

After the discussions here, I'm finally at a point where I don't understand modes anymore

I wonder how much of the music theory behind it is actually retrofitted to explain musical decisions that were sometimes not really made with such theories in mind in the first place.

If you think of modes purely mathematical / algorithmically, it seems to be easy: It's just one algorithm with 2 parametes, leading to 84 different possible combinations. But in practice, what pattern fits best to the actual harmony may not always be that clear, as music can also play with this unclarity on purpose. And sometimes we also jump out of the patterns entirely (e.g. modal exchange?). At some point it gets so blurred that I'm just not understanding the theory anymore.

The term "Key of D" did not make any sense to me at all. But it seems to be a term as well, see Wikipedia:

> D major (or the key of D) is a major scale based on D, consisting of the pitches D, E, F ♯, G, A, B, and C ♯. Its key signature consists of two sharps. Its relative minor is B minor and its parallel minor is D minor .

[jamcat]

That really throws me because I always assume minor.

I guess all this time I should have been saying "this one is in the key of F."

[jancivil]

you can start any mode on D though

At the time of the Holy Roman Church polyphony, with teh modes and all this, “Mode of D”, “Mode of E” et al appears to be the thing.
(I’m not certain, and it’s all received information from academics. and it’s been 44 or so yrs since I had to care or go through the motions as if I did, so I’m not on a very different footing than a plebe.)
hence my remark re the pretension in saying that, which evidently is obscure to folks here.

[jancivil]

apparently no notes beyond what corresponds with white keys existed

[jancivil]

you can start any mode on D though

was kind of a joke, as key, scale, modes are not the same thing, but he was mixing terms, so i did too...

Actually he wasn’t, exactly, but just using the moar edumacated usage for what we plebes will call Dorian Mode.

Albeit a modern person’s modality and a would-be academic choosing medieval Church Authority uber alles are not speaky the same lingo, quite.

[Fannon]

I just wanted to check my own assumptions after the discussions here. Since I'm more of a computer science person than musician, I tried to write my own understanding into code. Maybe someone is interested in it, so here is how you can do that with just a few lines of code, without stating the intervals of each mode individually:

2023-02-24 22_47_21-index.js - Scales Generator - Replit und 4 weitere Seiten - Persönlich – Microso.png

https://replit.com/@Fannon/Scales-Generator#index.js

[jancivil]

I wonder how much of the music theory behind it is actually retrofitted to explain musical decisions that were sometimes not really made with such theories in mind in the first place.

a fair bit, actually. So if you see someone say ‘JS Bach didn’t follow that rule’, the rules might just be an observation of what Bach did, ex facto.

I had 4 points taken off my final exam at CCM for committing the sin of Mozart Fifths.

[jancivil]

modes […]
music can also play with this unclarity on purpose. And sometimes we also jump out of the patterns entirely (e.g. modal exchange?). At some point it gets so blurred that I'm just not understanding the theory anymore.

Let me make it worse for ya.
“modal exchange” has naught to do with modality. It’s a term from tonal music theory referring to stuff, typically called borrowing, from minor while we were in major and vice versa. IE., the major mode, the minor mode (re music after modal music was beyond passe).

[jancivil]

However if a scale is relative tunings without an absolute frequency,

what?

a scale in 12 tone Equal Temperament on a fixed 12 tones to an octave instrument (eg., a modern piano, xylophone or marimba or vibraphone et al) has 12 close to absolute pitches; albeit a piano tuner is doing stretch tuning (until it gets out of tune because of reality).

These 12tET things are relative to but aren’t (ot) what we call rational [“Just”] intonation, which means the “major third” is originally derived from the 5:4 ratio to unity (or 81:64, cf. “Pythagorean”, or…)

and a mode is an absolute harmonic series without "harmony",

We’re speaking against glomming concepts drawn from harmonic function in tonal music onto eg., a Dorian {or even Ionian!} mode in modal music. A mode as such can reside within 12tET as well as a Just Intonation, a conflation of the two systems isn’t it.

also, the 12 equal system never really approaches (approximates) the Harmonic Series past partials 1 through 6.
rational intonation totally can but kinda beyond a more regular scalar conception. 11:4 (a way to say the 11th partial) is ~41 cents short of its closest expression [“#11”] in 12tET.

[jamcat]

So how does all of this fit into an understanding we can relate to?

Is this just about perspectives and language, or is there a real difference that can be pointed to where you can say "this is written in F major, and that is written in F Ionian?"

Is it just that "major" is a certain extremely narrow approach to harmonic progression, while "Ionian" is a particular melodic flavour?

And does the special status of "major" and "minor" have anything to do with Ionian and Aeolian coming about much later after the original 8 church modes of Dorian, Phyrgian, Lydian, Mixolydian, and their "Hypo" variants?

It seems like much of the understanding of modes evolved a lot over the past 1000 years, and different people here are arguing from very different definitions.

[jamcat]

However if a scale is relative tunings without an absolute frequency,

what?

I think he's saying a scale is a set of relative intervals, and it will be the same scale, relatively, regardless of what arbitrary frequency you begin on, so long as you follow the defined pattern.