CLAP... thoughts?

[vurt]

that you don't see it, doesn't mean there is no benefit.

[pixel85]

So as a Cubase user, I can safely ignore this format because Steinberg will never implement it.
Oh! Such a misery!

[pixel85]

that you don't see it, doesn't mean there is no benefit.

Except if Bones decide that it's useless. Then topic is closed and all devs can go back to the old routines

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Why CLAP? Here's a story...

Back in the day, Steinberg invented the VST plugin format which would truly revolutionize making music on computers. It was easy to develop for, worked great for audio and instruments, and by the time we got to VST2.4, was well-documented, feature-rich, and pretty stable format with widespread adoption throughout the industry. It may not have been "intended" to do things like side chaining and MIDI FX, but developers figured out how to do these things in VST2 in generally agreed upon ways, and all was right in the plugin world.

Then Steinberg introduced VST3. It wasn't as well documented as VST2 (still isn't to this day), didn't add much in terms of functionality that couldn't be done in VST2 (if anything), and just outright eliminated some things that worked fine in VST2 (MIDI Learn, which was missing for years, MIDI FX still can't be done, etc.). Many developers found out this was more difficult to develop more, and frankly, didn't offer much (if anything) new for their products, so several just continued happily releasing VST2 plugins and ignored VST3. VST3 adoption was very slow (don't fix what ain't broke) and support for VST3 in plugin frameworks and hosts was buggy for years. For many, there was no reason to add VST3 support other than to stop Cubendo users from complaining they wanted sidechain inputs on their effects (which worked fine in every other host in VST2 plugins due to what became a standardized workaround). Ignoring VST3 was a happy status quo for many as VST2 was widely supported, stable, and offered more flexibility than VST3. For those reasons, VST2 was considered the "better format" by most of the development community despite 2 being less than 3.

Recently, Steinberg started throwing their weight around and started changing the licensing terms for VST2 as well as announcing dropping support for VST2 in their DAWs. This was transparently done to force developers to adopt VST3 and to put the final nail in the coffin for the [perfectly healthy] VST2 format. They could've just open sourced VST2, but didn't.

So that brings us back to "why CLAP"? Well, 1) it's built for audio, MIDI, instruments, etc., 2) it adds modern features (polyphonic modulation, MPE, MIDI 2.0), 3) it's well-documented and easy to develop for like VST2 was, 4) it's liberally licensed, 5) it's not beholden to the whims of a single company, 6) plugins can be developed in CLAP and ported to other formats. There are additional benefits.

As a user, why should you care? First, it has some cool features that VST2 and VST3 don't have. And if CLAP takes off, the hope is that developers can focus more on development and build a business around a format that isn't beholden to the whims of Steinberg (or Apple, or Avid). This is good for everyone, consumers and developers alike.

[pdxindy]

So as a Cubase user, I can safely ignore this format because Steinberg will never implement it.
Oh! Such a misery!

Yes... though that doesn't mean you might not benefit from it. A developers VST3 plugins might become more capable because CLAP is their development platform. After the initial transition to using CLAP as a development platform, developers are likely to have reduced timeframe for accomplishing stuff, which will benefit users of the VST/AU/etc format of their plugins.

[Urs]

Try without ad hominem and maybe we can take concerns seriously.

[EvilDragon]

And entirely flawed.

[jamcat]

Why CLAP? Here's a story...

Here's another story...

I use multiple T-RackS plugins on every single song I make.

Mainstream 64-bit operating systems from Microsoft and Apple became available in 2007. T-RackS didn't go 64-bit until almost 2013.

The VST3 standard was released in 2008. T-RackS didn't support VST3 until late 2017.

Apple released the first M1 based computers a year and a half ago. T-RackS is still not yet Apple Silicon native, and won't be until T-RackS 6, which hasn't even been announced.

IK MUltimedia isn't among the 3 or 4 relevant developers on the "CLAP curious" list.

There is close to zero percent likelihood that T-RackS will support CLAP in the next 10 years, if at all. If even one plugin you use doesn't support CLAP then it may as well be none of them.

Are you suggesting I choose the CLAP format over the plugins I actually use and rely on?
Put the interests of a couple developers whom I use zero products from above my own interests?

[EvilDragon]

There is close to zero percent likelihood that T-RackS will support CLAP in the next 10 years, if at all.

You cannot know that for sure with any dose of certainty.

Are you suggesting I choose the CLAP format over the plugins I actually use and rely on?

Not sure where you're getting that from. Nobody here is suggesting that.

[vurt]

i was suggesting that if you dont see the benefit in clap, it doesnt effect you either way.
you just carry on as you are, nothing will change for you, its not like clap existing will make vst worse, so its just something you can forget, with no worry.

[jackoo]

yes.. but ya'know "why should others be happy"?

[jamcat]

There is close to zero percent likelihood that T-RackS will support CLAP in the next 10 years, if at all.

You cannot know that for sure with any dose of certainty.

I laid out how long it takes IK to release new platform support based on historical evidence. I said "close to zero" to cover the small bit of uncertainty on the specific timeframe.

And IK is just one developer. There are many with similar track records.

The point I am illustrating is that there are many major developers who are very slow moving, and CLAP fanatics will be waiting years, at least, to see them put resources into developing for yet another platform. There is no incentive whatsoever for a developers to divert resources to CLAP, and the CLAP architects have no plan to create an incentive.

Developers supported 64-bit because 32-bit systems' marketshare disappeared over many years. They eventually got onboard with VST3 because Steinberg actively sunset VST2. They're picking up Apple Silicon support because Apple is phasing out Intel-based systems. They support AU and AAX because Logic and Pro Tools only support their own proprietary formats. There are real market forces at work behind every move.

But what incentive does CLAP have for adoption?
There are no hosts that are CLAP only, nor will there be.
Bitwig's not going to put their money where their mouth is and drop VST support in favour of CLAP. They lack confidence in their market position to do that. u-he's not going to drop VST and AU support and cut themselves off from 99% of the market. So CLAP will be like MAS. One host will run it, but also runs other formats, giving no one any real reason to invest in supporting it. How many plugins give a MAS option?

Unless and until Bitwig drops VST and goes CLAP only, the way Logic dropped VST and went AU only, CLAP will never be more than a platform for tinkerers.

[vurt]

and if nobody at least tried new things, wed still be living in trees waving our nuts at each other (like bonobos)

[fisherKing]

There is close to zero percent likelihood that T-RackS will support CLAP in the next 10 years, if at all.

You cannot know that for sure with any dose of certainty.

I laid out how long it takes IK to release new platform support based on historical evidence. I said "close to zero" to cover the small bit of uncertainty on the specific timeframe.

And IK is just one developer. There are many with similar track records.

The point I am illustrating is that there are many major developers who are very slow moving, and CLAP fanatics will be waiting years, at least, to see them put resources into developing for yet another platform. There is no incentive whatsoever for a developers to divert resources to CLAP, and the CLAP architects have no plan to create an incentive.

Developers supported 64-bit because 32-bit systems' marketshare disappeared over many years. They eventually got onboard with VST3 because Steinberg actively sunset VST2. They're picking up Apple Silicon support because Apple is phasing out Intel-based systems. They support AU and AAX because Logic and Pro Tools only support their own proprietary formats. There are real market forces at work behind every move.

But what incentive does CLAP have for adoption?
There are no hosts that are CLAP only, nor will there be.
Bitwig's not going to put their money where their mouth is and drop VST support in favour of CLAP. They lack confidence in their market position to do that. u-he's not going to drop VST and AU support and cut themselves off from 99% of the market. So CLAP will be like MAS. One host will run it, but also runs other formats, giving no one any real reason to invest in supporting it. How many plugins give a MAS option?

Unless and until Bitwig drops VST and goes CLAP only, the way Logic dropped VST and went AU only, CLAP will never be more than a platform for tinkerers.

or it will become as ubiquitous as the VST, AU, etc formats. why are you so worked up about this??

[trashcanman]

I thought this would be appropriate.

Source