switch from bitwig to another daw

[Teksonik]

Going by the reactions Bitwig now have to find out they're not Apple the hard way.

Well.. let's not confuse a few single individuals on forums with the majority of users.

To truly avoid confusion, first you have to define the size of the Bitwig user base. A few hundred, a few thousand, tens of thousands?

Probably a few thousands.

No, forums or social media never have been a measure of anything. On the contrary, they're often hoarding the moaners and complainers. Where else can they moan and complain all that they want?

The point is you can't say what is a measure or not. We simply don't have enough information.

You're drawing conclusions not based on fact but based on your perception of forums and social media.

So is anyone who thinks they know what this episode will mean to Bitwig in the short or long term.

[chk071]

Going by the reactions Bitwig now have to find out they're not Apple the hard way.

Well.. let's not confuse a few single individuals on forums with the majority of users.

To truly avoid confusion, first you have to define the size of the Bitwig user base. A few hundred, a few thousand, tens of thousands?

Probably a few thousands.

No, forums or social media never have been a measure of anything. On the contrary, they're often hoarding the moaners and complainers. Where else can they moan and complain all that they want?

The point is you can't say what is a measure or not. We simply don't have enough information.

Indeed. So why make a generality out of it?

"Going by the reactions Bitwig now have to find out they're not Apple the hard way. "

Especially forums and social media mean shit. Again, the unhappy gather there, to celebrate their unhappiness.

[Teksonik]

I didn't say that it was someone else. The point is you're both guilty of speculation based on a lack of solid facts.

[chk071]

No. I said that single individuals state their dissatisfaction here. Which is the truth. Or do you see a thousand individuals stating their dissatisfaction here?

It's nonsense to derive any kind of general tendency from forums. The least Bitwig users are posting here.

You know what's the best measure of satisfaction? Sales and business figures. It's also the only thing that matters if you're developing commercial software, and have to make a living of it.

It's a general thing here and elsewhere. People should put their money where their mouth is, and just stop buying stuff they feel like is an insult to their moral ethics. Or whatever stupid crap this is supposed to be about again. The amount of stupidity is mind boggling.

[Trancit]

Going by the reactions Bitwig now have to find out they're not Apple the hard way.

Well.. let's not confuse a few single individuals on forums with the majority of users.

To truly avoid confusion, first you have to define the size of the Bitwig user base. A few hundred, a few thousand, tens of thousands?

Probably a few thousands.

No, forums or social media never have been a measure of anything. On the contrary, they're often hoarding the moaners and complainers. Where else can they moan and complain all that they want?

The point is you can't say what is a measure or not. We simply don't have enough information.

Indeed. So why make a generality out of it?

"Going by the reactions Bitwig now have to find out they're not Apple the hard way. "

Especially forums and social media mean shit. Again, the unhappy gather there, to celebrate their unhappiness.

But noone can´t deny that people are using i.e. YT videos to make their minds up when e.g. being interested in a new or first DAW...
When they see lots of moaning there they will use other social media sources to investigate further and when they see there a huge shitstorm the majority will probably stay away from it...

Social media and forums are for sure not everything but nothing to underrate either...

I think and honestely I hope that the Bitwigs will get the financial loss they deserve for this move!
This would be a good sign to all companies trying to cheat their customers especially after all this companies sellout we have seen the last years...

[Greenstorm33]

No. I said that single individuals state their dissatisfaction here. Which is the truth. Or do you see a thousand individuals stating their dissatisfaction here?

It's nonsense to derive any kind of general tendency from forums. The least Bitwig users are posting here.

You know what's the best measure of satisfaction? Sales and business figures. It's also the only thing that matters if you're developing commercial software, and have to make a living of it.

It's a general thing here and elsewhere. People should put their money where their mouth is, and just stop buying stuff they feel like is an insult to their moral ethics. Or whatever stupid crap this is supposed to be about again. The amount of stupidity is mind boggling.

Literally everywhere you can talk about Bitwig online the response has been overwhelmingly negative. This is obviously not a representative sample of the user base but I think it's pretty reasonable to infer that they've pissed off a sizeable chunk of us. Another thing to consider is that people who bother to frequent online Bitwig spaces and make Bitwig-related content are likely to be the biggest brand evangelists, i.e. the people who are most likely to encourage others to try the DAW and the people you most want to keep happy. And of course the best thing to do is not pay for it, which is what a lot of the discussion has been about.

[eerie_audio]

Could this be just another black eye for the subscription model?

I mean, Presonus recently release version 6, that a lot of veteran users think was underwhelming, because they already own alternatives to the additions. And they felt more catered towards new comers to their Sphere subscription model.

There was also the recent news that the subscription god himself, Slate, threw in the towel. Which could be somewhat related to the falling numbers of renewals. This is speculation of course, but who would of guessed Slate would exit stage left this early in the game?

Now this from Bitwig, it just seems like another punch to the gut for subscription models?

[Serhii Kot]

For those who uses bitwig just for fun occasionally, this is not so great. I thought to renew my licence(4.2) but now I do not really want. It was pretty expensive already, but you thought that developers work hard to deliver you the best they can and you want to support them. But now you know, that this is not the case.

If they have some financial troubles and want to make some alternative buck, just tell your customers. Many will support you.

ps before the war, I supported all major DAW developers by buying their software and updates, I do not even use them. I want to support industry while I can. If cubase did something great - I am in, if Ableton did - the same. Bitwig did something not so great.

[wvshpr]

Going by the reactions Bitwig now have to find out they're not Apple the hard way.

In the 20+ years I have been using Apple, they have never done anything remotely similar. In fact, whenever users complained loudly, Apple reacted accordingly.

Bitwig decided it's ok to break their own TOS. This will have legal, commercial and hearts and minds implications.

[dellboy]

As Shakespeare said "Much Ado About Nothing". Bitwig developers are a clever lot, they knew this would cause a storm, just like the license change some years back caused a storm in a teacup,but it will soon blow over. The only viable DAW for a Bitwigger to go to is Live, and most of the current Bitwiggers originally left Live to go to Bitwig. Anyone fancy a game of "ping-pong"?

[Held]

Going by the reactions Bitwig now have to find out they're not Apple the hard way.

In the 20+ years I have been using Apple, they have never done anything remotely similar. In fact, whenever users complained loudly, Apple reacted accordingly.

Bitwig decided it's ok to break their own TOS. This will have legal, commercial and hearts and minds implications.

That's true. Apple usually pisses of developers and users blame the developers for not jumping through Apple's hoops quickly enough.

[apoclypse]

Going by the reactions Bitwig now have to find out they're not Apple the hard way.

In the 20+ years I have been using Apple, they have never done anything remotely similar. In fact, whenever users complained loudly, Apple reacted accordingly.

Bitwig decided it's ok to break their own TOS. This will have legal, commercial and hearts and minds implications.

That's true. Apple usually pisses of developers and users blame the developers for not jumping through Apple's hoops quickly enough.

You can say the same for any platform holder. Microsoft, Google, Amazon etc. If you are building your business off of the back of another businesses whims then you have to deal with whatever they throw at you. It's just that simple. People have similar complaints about Youtube whenever they make policy changes.

[machinesworking]

Could this be just another black eye for the subscription model?

Bitwig is not a subscription model, and that's half the problem.

Upgrade - You pay at the start, for the program, but bi or tri- yearly paid upgrades add in the biggest features up front usually, so existing users see exactly what they will get for their money, with a trickle of features in updates.

Subscription- Users pay monthly to use the software, if you stop paying the software stops working, so while you can "jump off" you get a sever penalty doing so.

Update Plan- You pay up front for the software, you can pay a fee for yearly updates to the program. You can jump on and off the plan without losing the core program.

So IMO it's a black eye in the Update Plan model, you're paying for possible software in the future, and there's no immediate penalty for not being on the plan. It's supposed to have stability benefits like the subscription model without the penalty of losing the software when you are not currently on the plan, but it kind of plays havoc with the generating of predictable income for the developers. If they don't have a fantastic year for new models, they misread the buying public, they lose money. With Upgrade cycles a company knows when a cash revenue will be the highest etc. it's predictable.

True subscription plans IMO only work for companies like Avid, Adobe etc. where a core audience is locked into their software and has little choice but to pay. Too many DAWs like Logic and Reaper are super cheap without even tri-yearly upgrade cycles to think anyone besides Avid could fully pull it off.

[Teksonik]

No. I said that single individuals state their dissatisfaction here. Which is the truth. Or do you see a thousand individuals stating their dissatisfaction here? It's nonsense to derive any kind of general tendency from forums. The least Bitwig users are posting here.

Not to state the painfully obvious but "here" is not the totality of the internet. Again you're projecting your own beliefs on the situation.

You have absolutely no clue what impact this is having on Bitwig. No one does. I doubt even Bitwig has a clue yet. It will take time for the impact to be felt. Whether that impact is minimal or significant has yet to be seen.

You know what's the best measure of satisfaction? Sales and business figures. It's also the only thing that matters if you're developing commercial software, and have to make a living of it.

Exactly. But neither you or I or anyone else other than Bitwig has those sales figures. Will there be a decrease in revenue? An increase? Effectively no change? Again it will take time to tell.

Bitwig has an estimated annual revenue of 100k to 5 Million dollars. Ableton has an estimated revenue of 25-100 Million dollars. If you're going on sales that's a pretty wide difference in "measure of satisfaction".

People should put their money where their mouth is, and just stop buying stuff they feel like is an insult to their moral ethics. Or whatever stupid crap this is supposed to be about again. The amount of stupidity is mind boggling.

I believe that's what some people have said in these various threads. Some have vowed not to give Bitwig any more money.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you don't actually own any version of Bitwig? If not that would explain why you don't understand "whatever stupid crap this is supposed to be about".

What is mind boggling is how some people seem to feel the need to comment on things that don't affect them at all. That would seem to be an incredibly stupid way to spend your time.

[Propellerhands]

Why some people even switch DAWS? I mean sure, if you picked up GarageBand at first it makes sense to move to something more appropriate. But all DAWs are more or less the same, differs just workflow and GUI. I suggest trying every single demo and then deciding. To me personally, if I switched DAWs (currently Reason), I would choose Ableton. Not complicated, and quick to use.